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Leader Knots


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21 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   myocard

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 08:54 PM

I have been happy with the double uni knot for attaching fluoro leader to braid. Knots are strong.

Two problems I have had - one is casting. The double uni affects casting distances & does worse things some times. This annoys me to the point that on some rods I make sure the knot is clear of the tip before casting. I get away with this with spinning reels - but with overhead reels you have to be more careful.

Second problem raised it's head in a lost jewfish. I had just landed a 70cm jew, rebaited and hooked up again to a similar sized fish. Got it to the boat, only for the double uni to foul on the rod tip runner. This was all the fish needed to go bezerk on the surface and throw the hook. All I had to do was reach forward, tug on the line and the knot would clear the runner. That is all the time the fish needed.

I landed another with the same setup - but now it is time to change before the next outing.

So I decided the Albright knot sounds like what I need. First two I tied with 20lb braid / 30lb fluoro leader and all is good.

Now I tie a 6lb braid / 10lb leader albright and it fails. And fails again. Now I am doubting the knots in my heavier rigs.


So is the albright a reliable knot for this purpose. Any other recommendations?

#2 OFFLINE   cant catch any

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 09:48 PM

I find only 6 twists on the fluoro or mono is more than enough and about 12 twists with the braid is good when doing the double uni. It tends to be the mono that fouls on the guide so try to make the mono side of the uni knot small by giving it less twists. This is for 30 to 40 pound mono. Any thicker and you will def need bigger guides.

Cheers Andrew

Sorry. I forgot to say the double uni is very safe. A fishing guide in cape York used it and he helped me catch some good barra, queenies and trevally with no failures. The trick I suppose is the rod tip guide size to the size of the leader.

The key is to have the right rod size for the line and the guides on the rod will suit.

#3 OFFLINE   monch

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 09:49 PM

Slim beauty is a great knot. As the name suggests it is slim, has good knot strength and is not too hard to tie after some practice. The albright has an inherent risk of slipping whereas the slim beauty does not. The two look similar and similar in how you tie them. Look it up on youtube.

If you want to get real technical, you can learn those complicated PR, FG knots etc that they use for heavy duty popping etc

#4 OFFLINE   cant catch any

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 09:49 PM

Hat way the double uni won't affect casting. The Albright I feel is not as reliable.

#5 OFFLINE   fishmaniac

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 10:43 PM

I have experienced the same dilemma as you have mentioned. The double uni knot is a strong and reliable knot but will foul when casting and retrieving line. As a result it can cause issues.

I have fished with the albright but i have two problems. It runs smoothly through the guides on the retrieve but can get caught when casting or when a fish takes a final lunge. It is also a knot which deteriorates with time and i found that lighter lines snap.

I now use the slim-beauty knot. It has been mentioned above and i certainly recommend it. Although it can foul a bit when retrieving it runs smoothly through the guides when casting and if a fish takes a final lunge. I would certainly recommend giving it a shot.

Andrew

#6 OFFLINE   zephi

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 11:32 PM

Slim Beauty is the way to go.... but it's quite a difficult knot to tie in comparison to the double uni and the albright...
The mono tends to slip on lighter lines, so make sure you tighten the knot with a lot of tension before giving it a go... I've lost so many fish because the knot slips and fails.
I love casting with the slim beauty, retrieving does foul a bit, but hey at least it doesn't foul both ways like the double uni does.

#7 OFFLINE   jewgaffer

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 11:39 PM

I think you'll like this one Myocard. I just didn't know about braid suitability but it's no different to a very easy to tie knot that can be used to add a length of lighter mono to the main line on an Alvey. It was a commonly used knot for casting thru rod guides with a minimum amount of catching up on the guides if pulled in and trimmed properly. Have a read of this article in the link below, apparantly the same knot has been now been accepted as being one of the most reliable knots for joining braid to mono.
I find it very interesting as a friend and I were planning to share 2x 2000 yards of a U.S made Dacron braid and were told it was hollow core braid and had a .051 diameter compared to their spiderwire diameter of .041 which is about the same as my power pro converted over from .O17 inches I.E 80 lb power pro = 18lb mono . Anyway this made the 80lb dacron braid the thickness of around 110 lb power pro and too heavy and more of an ocean braid like the larger dyneemas. When I asked the U.S seller if hollow core dacron braid could be tied the same way as you tie power pro and the spectre braids etc,
I was sent a link to this site and I'm sure I'll be tying this knot again when my mate and I go all fluoro from the water level down :thumbup:

http://www.worldseaf...id_to_mono.html

Cheers

jewgaffer :1fishing1:

#8 OFFLINE   Ray R

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 04:33 AM

Improved Albright, 6 turns down and 6 turns back, I have used this for a long time now,
runs through guides easily and has held up in all conditions.
Try doubling up your 6lb braid first...

#9 OFFLINE   slinkymalinky

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 06:04 AM

Slim Beauty is the way to go.... but it's quite a difficult knot to tie in comparison to the double uni and the albright...
The mono tends to slip on lighter lines, so make sure you tighten the knot with a lot of tension before giving it a go... I've lost so many fish because the knot slips and fails.
I love casting with the slim beauty, retrieving does foul a bit, but hey at least it doesn't foul both ways like the double uni does.



How are you tying the slim beauty, Zephi? I use it all the time and have never had one slip.

Cheers, Slinky

#10 OFFLINE   Boofhead

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:41 AM

I use the improved albright on 6lb Braid to 10 lbs mono through to 50lbs Braid & 80 lbs mono & haven't had any slip or give. The trick with the improved albright is to wrap the braid evenly & close, then pull down progressivly & evenly. Also, try getting into the habit of trimming all mono on all knots at an angle of 45 degree instead of straight, this sounds like a nothing solution but it does make a difference to the flexibility of the tag ends & aid with preventing it catching on anything.

Slim beauty is a nice knot too.

Edited by Boofhead, 04 February 2010 - 07:45 AM.


#11 OFFLINE   shaune

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 08:46 AM

I have had the Albright fail on me a few times. It came loose after lots of casting.
Probably my fault but I don't use it anymore.
I've had no failures with the Slim Beauty and I don't think its hard to tie at all.

#12 OFFLINE   DGF

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:00 AM

i used a double uni knot as well with 6 twists on fluro and 12 twists on the braid havnt had a problem so far but i dont use bait casters

#13 OFFLINE   jewgaffer

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:13 AM

.....Also, try getting into the habit of trimming all mono on all knots at an angle of 45 degree instead of straight, this sounds like a nothing solution but it does make a difference to the flexibility of the tag ends & aid with preventing it catching on anything.

Mik it does make the difference alright and the 45 degree cut is just as easy as doing a straight cut with a pair of scissors anyway. To make a bird of it and also reduce the problem of braid wrapping around tag ends - either at home or if it's not too windy out there, moisten up the end of the mono and heat it up touch and go with a cigarette lighter until you to have a short streamer coming out of the wraps instead and have the streamer as close in to the wraps as you can, the trade off that day was having a hot thumb in the esky water by not being quick enough :D

Cheers

jewgaffer :1fishing1:

#14 OFFLINE   zephi

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:46 AM

How are you tying the slim beauty, Zephi? I use it all the time and have never had one slip.

Cheers, Slinky

On the mono end I tie a two wrap uni knot. Thread the braid through the 2 loops formed. Then for the braid end, I use a 8 twist down, then 4 twist up, and 2 twists in the loop originally formed, wrapping the expose mono.

#15 OFFLINE   monch

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 12:58 PM

On the mono end I tie a two wrap uni knot. Thread the braid through the 2 loops formed. Then for the braid end, I use a 8 twist down, then 4 twist up, and 2 twists in the loop originally formed, wrapping the expose mono.


I double the braid over, thread it through the "2 loops" that you mention and do 5 or so wraps down, the equal amount up and pass the tag end through the 1st braid wrap. Your extra step of wrapping over the mono leader itself with the braid could have some advantages of making it more smooth (although i think it is smooth enough)... don't know how it will cause the slipping.

Are you tightening the mono leader down enough?

Admins, can i post a link to a youtube video? I think it provides a very clear and easy to follow instruction on 1 way of tying the slim beauty.

Edited by monch, 04 February 2010 - 01:03 PM.


#16 OFFLINE   shaune

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 01:49 PM

I've noticed there are a lot of versions of the slim beauty but this is the original.
http://www.midcurren...lim_beauty.aspx
(there is also a link to the history of it).

I think the difference between this and what your doing is the 'double overhand loop" instead of the "2 wrap uni" on the mono.
I'm not sure which is best , but I've always tied mine per the original (ie with the double o'hand loop).
With the braid I do 8 wraps down , 4 back up and 3 more wraps through the loop.

#17 OFFLINE   myocard

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 04:42 PM

Great information here. Thanks for the insight.

A few options to try - better double uni's / modified double uni's as suggested . The revised Albright will also get a go - this is an easy knot to tie.

The slim beauty knots are obviously worth a go and the J Knot that jewgaffer linked to is one I will have a go at right away.

I hadn't considered ideas like cutting the mono line at an angle to reduce foul ups. Another great tip that I'll be using.

#18 OFFLINE   monch

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 05:26 PM



This is the video i was referring to, when he describes the 2 lines, the 'fly line' (shock tippet) would be equivalent to your leader material (which is thicker) and the 'charteruse monofilament' (class tippet) would be equivalent to your braid (which is thinner).

An important point that he raises in the last step of tightening the knot, is to tighten the braid side via the standing ie main line and not the tag end. If you pull on the tag end too much before you pull on the standing part, the top layer of the braid (ie the "4 wraps up') will dig into the lower layer of wraps and lock them all in place, before they are stacked nicely.

Shaune, i think a double overhand knot is the same as a 2 wrap uni, i always referred to it as a double overhand knot anyway though.

Myocard, do try all the different knots and suggestions here, but remember you have to practice with each one, especially some of the more difficult ones, to be able to compare them fairly.

Edited by monch, 04 February 2010 - 06:15 PM.


#19 OFFLINE   jewgaffer

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:01 PM

[/quote]
[color=#003300][quote name='monch' post='342093' date='Feb 4 2010, 06:26 PM']

....This is the video i was referring to, when he describes the 2 lines, the 'fly line' (shock tippet) would be equivalent to your leader material (which is thicker) and the 'charteruse monofilament' (class tippet) would be equivalent to your braid (which is thinner).
[/quote]
Hows things anyway Monch. You'd be just the man to speak to about this but for the life of me mate I can't see much advantage looking at the slim beauty apart from being just about as slim as - over using the original cord type braid to mono knot which carried on into tying the specter braids and was used for long leaders, winds on etc and comprised of a two, three or four looped uni knot at the maximum in the mono and an ordinary unlocked blood knot in the lightest of the cord lines that you would use. Although the two turn granny knot in the slim beauty tightens into a figure eight in the mono I'd rather like to see it tighten into the braid and clinch onto and lock in the end like the uni does rather than clinching into itself as a knot over the braid.
Also I think the problem with using braid from the water level down is the fact that it has such high visibilty which is reflected by the sales on the hi vis yellows etc and the larger demand is for the more natural green colours and larger spool sales in the States are favouring the reds I believe, and I was only told recently that Power Pro red outsells the more expensive Tufline.
I think there is a good reason to use fluoro carbon allowing enough in front of the braid main line to cover the water depth at least from the rod tip down.
Apart from my view of the slim beauty, what are your views Monch from a point of view of catching more fish.

Cheers

jewgaffer :1fishing1:

#20 OFFLINE   monch

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 08:12 PM

Hi Jewgaffer, i am not experienced enough with knots (or fishing for that matter) to be able to comment on your views of which knot is superior. From what little experience i have, i have found the slim beauty to be well... slim, which allows me to have longer leaders that i can wind onto the reel and still cast out nearly unimpeded. From the general consensus on the internet, and from my own experience, i find it to be a fairly strong knot that i can tie well enough and also have confidence in it, which is why i use it.

I generally use 2m leaders and as i fish fairly shallow water (probably <5m, more often <3m) landbased, most of the braid is out of the water. I know a lot of people use <1m leaders and they catch more fish than me so i really don't know if it helps all that much. Based on theory though, i would like to have no visible braid in the water, but that is just too expensive to have to throw away long lengths of leaders all the time. On my heavier outfit which i use for livebaiting, generally with a float, i put around a 3.5m leader on it. My purpose of doing so is to use the braid to leader knot as a stopper knot for the float (which is otherwise free running). This allows my livie to have freedom to swim anywhere between 0-3.5m deep, and therefore in most of the water column for the areas i fish. Essentially what i am doing is letting the livie free swim but having a float as a bite indicator and a general indicator of where my livie is. What it also does is keep all of the braid out of the water, which is not my main intention but is an added bonus i guess. Oh and the extra stretch i believe helps for bigger fish that go hard.

So there you go, those are my views, i don't know for sure if it helps me catch fish cause i don't catch fish, i only try to catch fish :wacko: . I just like to think that it helps me catch fish.