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Bobbin Head Hire Boats Closes thank you, lawyers & insurance industry
#1
- BREAM
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- Group: MEMBERS
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- Joined: 25-August 04
Posted 23 May 2005 - 01:17 PM
The blue hire boats from Halvorsen's, which have been a fixture at Bobbin Head for as long as I can remember, are no more. Apparently the rental income no longer covers the cost of public liability insurance. It's only a year since Halvorsen's were forced to stop renting their famous cruisers, thanks to pressure from the EPA. Here's the story, from the Hornsby Advocate of May 12:
MultiQuote
#2
- FLATHEAD
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 02:00 PM
Some how I dont think there will be too many regrets. Halvorsens has changed over the years, they are not interested in the little guy hiring out the tinny any more, their focus these days is the new marina and the expensive boats that are in it and the income that is obtained from them. The hire tinnys are more of an eye sore to the luxury boat owners and I'm sure the fishos who hire them are just as unwelcome.
Halverson now think they own the bobbin head area, just try and fish any where near their marina and I'm talking outside of it. They will always try and put the bounce on you to leave the area. I had one imbosile try and tell me that Halvorsens leased the whole area right to the opposite shore line and all the water in between was private property
.
The hire boats are no longer economically viable, not because of public liability but because their presence and that of the people that use them, may turn away potential berthing customers for the marina.
Halverson now think they own the bobbin head area, just try and fish any where near their marina and I'm talking outside of it. They will always try and put the bounce on you to leave the area. I had one imbosile try and tell me that Halvorsens leased the whole area right to the opposite shore line and all the water in between was private property
.The hire boats are no longer economically viable, not because of public liability but because their presence and that of the people that use them, may turn away potential berthing customers for the marina.
#3
- BREAM
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- Group: MEMBERS
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 04:10 PM
Nope. Maybe you've had a bad experience, but there were two blokes in a red Coleman canoe down there at yesterday lunchtime, working lures round the marina arms without any complaint from the management at all. You see that all the time.
After dark it's a different story, when the security bloke is on duty, and that's understandable when you consider the amount of crime down there. I note the public phone at ATB has been ripped out (again) recently, so some crim can get a few 20 cent pieces. Red tape has canned the blue rental boats, just like it canned the Halvo cruiser rentals. It's a crying shame. Cheers, Andrew
After dark it's a different story, when the security bloke is on duty, and that's understandable when you consider the amount of crime down there. I note the public phone at ATB has been ripped out (again) recently, so some crim can get a few 20 cent pieces. Red tape has canned the blue rental boats, just like it canned the Halvo cruiser rentals. It's a crying shame. Cheers, Andrew
#4 Guest_bluecod_*
Posted 23 May 2005 - 07:43 PM
Mick, on May 23 2005, 03:00 PM, said:
Halverson now think they own the bobbin head area, just try and fish any where near their marina and I'm talking outside of it. They will always try and put the bounce on you to leave the area. I had one imbosile try and tell me that Halvorsens leased the whole area right to the opposite shore line and all the water in between was private property .
.Mick,
Having, as you correctly put it, an imbocile tell you that makes my blood boil.
Send me a PM with all the details.
#5
- FLATHEAD
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 08:40 PM
bluecod, on May 23 2005, 08:43 PM, said:
Mick,
Having, as you correctly put it, an imbocile tell you that makes my blood boil.
Send me a PM with all the details.
Having, as you correctly put it, an imbocile tell you that makes my blood boil.
Send me a PM with all the details.
Mick, Bluecod,
I fished the area on sunday from the canoe, and was told to move along a couple of times, I simply motored down the next isle and kept fishing. The first guy was very reasonable and just asked us to fish down the ended where he couldn't see us, the second guy told us it was illegal to fish on the outside of the marina.
They have no fishing signs in and around the marina, but I wonder whether they have the authority to declare the are no fishing, I think probably not.
Apparently whether a marina has the right to exclude anyone depends on whether
the lease only the water the pontoons sit on or the entire are contained within them. It would be handy to know your exact rights when it comes to marina fishing, perhaps create a database detailing individual marinas.
on the other hand maybe its better to move along when asked and go fish another or a different part of the marina...that way no specific law gets passed to exclude bream fishos from targeting marinas.
There are sh#$%t loads of bream in there by the way
afewbream.JPG (127.56K)
Number of downloads: 77
Lizard
#6 Guest_bluecod_*
Posted 23 May 2005 - 09:40 PM
Thanks Lizardboy - it looks like Mick's is not an isolated incident, although I won't be near a 'phone tomorrow, I'll make some inquiries regarding Sydney harbour and the National Parks state of affairs and post what details I can get later in the week.
This next bit is best explained if you understand the definition of a "fairway". A "fairway" is the expanse of water between marina arms used to navigate vessels as they leave and dock at their berth.
Some marinas, generally those under lease, have the fairways included in the leased area.
Marinas held under license generally do not have the fairways included in the license but do include the areas bounded by the berthing piles [where the boats are berthed] and generally exclude the fairways.
A lease gives the owner of the lease, "exclusive possession". This means that if you are asked to leave and you don't, then you are committing a trespass.
A license does not give the owner exclusive possession and you cannot be required to leave the area, provided you are not physically on the jetty or pontoon.
Discretion is best used at all times, particularly if the security guard is bigger than you, however the best way to throw the marina owner into panic is to advise him you are just exercising your native title rights, if you really want to push the issue and be a smartarse, demand to know what tenure the land is occupied under and insist on the tenure details [ i.e. lease number ?? license number ??] these can be checked out later.
A security guard/marina owner can make it unpleasant to fish the area with his constant badgering/turning the hose on you/running you down in his workboat etc and commonsense comes into play whether you want to have a peacable fish or put up with the crap he will deal out, regardless whether he is in the right or wrong.
A similar problem emerged a decade and a half ago with the question of public fishing rights of inland waterways, the answer to which would fill volumes. The simplest solution is to ask if you can fish a particular area and if not, why not. If they know you are not out to damage their clients boats or pinch bits from those boats they probably won't have a concern with you being there.
This next bit is best explained if you understand the definition of a "fairway". A "fairway" is the expanse of water between marina arms used to navigate vessels as they leave and dock at their berth.
Some marinas, generally those under lease, have the fairways included in the leased area.
Marinas held under license generally do not have the fairways included in the license but do include the areas bounded by the berthing piles [where the boats are berthed] and generally exclude the fairways.
A lease gives the owner of the lease, "exclusive possession". This means that if you are asked to leave and you don't, then you are committing a trespass.
A license does not give the owner exclusive possession and you cannot be required to leave the area, provided you are not physically on the jetty or pontoon.
Discretion is best used at all times, particularly if the security guard is bigger than you, however the best way to throw the marina owner into panic is to advise him you are just exercising your native title rights, if you really want to push the issue and be a smartarse, demand to know what tenure the land is occupied under and insist on the tenure details [ i.e. lease number ?? license number ??] these can be checked out later.
A security guard/marina owner can make it unpleasant to fish the area with his constant badgering/turning the hose on you/running you down in his workboat etc and commonsense comes into play whether you want to have a peacable fish or put up with the crap he will deal out, regardless whether he is in the right or wrong.
A similar problem emerged a decade and a half ago with the question of public fishing rights of inland waterways, the answer to which would fill volumes. The simplest solution is to ask if you can fish a particular area and if not, why not. If they know you are not out to damage their clients boats or pinch bits from those boats they probably won't have a concern with you being there.
#7
- FLATHEAD
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Posted 24 May 2005 - 11:59 AM
The area in side any marina is regarded as private property, but I can asure you the area out side is not. Most of the marina's work on bluff and halversons is no different. As most would know, the majority of marina's class thems selves as marine sanctuaries to stop fisherman smelling up the place with prawns/pillies etc.
Halversons do not hold any right of claim outside the marina so you are free to fish there.
Halversons do not hold any right of claim outside the marina so you are free to fish there.
#8
- FLATHEAD
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Posted 24 May 2005 - 05:07 PM
When I last walked upstream behind the slipway at Halversons I noticed a white survey peg marked "end of lease" or similar. To the untrained eye it would appear as though Halversons mooring bouys were positioned roughly in a line downsteam from that point.
Perhaps there is a recognisable area of lease that Haversons can legitimately claim is their sanctuary.
For what its worth, the security dudes can be gruff, it's probably best to not poke too many sticks in the hornets nest.
MH
Perhaps there is a recognisable area of lease that Haversons can legitimately claim is their sanctuary.
For what its worth, the security dudes can be gruff, it's probably best to not poke too many sticks in the hornets nest.
MH
#9
- MAKO
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Posted 24 May 2005 - 05:12 PM
I would love to see an actual legal document that explains the position on Marinas etc. I have never seen one yet but I have heard about 75 different versions of what is private property & not accessible & what is not.
Love to see something in black & white.
Love to see something in black & white.
#10 Guest_Jewel_*
Posted 24 May 2005 - 05:18 PM
Recently there was an article in the papers regarding the use of private wharves and pontoons, in essance it stated that legislation had changed to the effect that the aforementioned structures were fair game to the general public. I have yet to follow up and see if I can find the legeslation, but it could be handy to carry around!!
Anyone else know/heard anything about this?
Anyone else know/heard anything about this?
#11 Guest_Jocool_*
Posted 24 May 2005 - 06:23 PM
As far as I was aware a lease only applied to the structures. The water below the mean high tide mark is classed as public.
I had a run in with security at a wharf/marina near the city one day, and was told to leave as fishing was not allowed and that the water was private property. He began to tell me that the white pylons at the entrance to the bay were the boundaries of this 'private' property. I began to tell him that anything below the high tide mark was public, and he wanted to argue the point. He threatened to call the police, so I offered my phone for him to call!
In a matter of minutes, I had the security gaurd, the manager, and the shift supervisor along with 4 other security gaurds telling me to move. I refused! Until I was ready to go. 
He threatened to take down my boat rego and pass it to the water police. I also offered my name, address, and lic. details to help him! Needless to say, nothing eventuated.
I told my story on another popular forum and got absolutely flamed by members telling me I was giving Fisho's a bad name!
Having said all that...I would LOVE to see some rulings in black & white!
I had a run in with security at a wharf/marina near the city one day, and was told to leave as fishing was not allowed and that the water was private property. He began to tell me that the white pylons at the entrance to the bay were the boundaries of this 'private' property. I began to tell him that anything below the high tide mark was public, and he wanted to argue the point. He threatened to call the police, so I offered my phone for him to call!
In a matter of minutes, I had the security gaurd, the manager, and the shift supervisor along with 4 other security gaurds telling me to move. I refused! Until I was ready to go. He threatened to take down my boat rego and pass it to the water police. I also offered my name, address, and lic. details to help him! Needless to say, nothing eventuated.
I told my story on another popular forum and got absolutely flamed by members telling me I was giving Fisho's a bad name!
Having said all that...I would LOVE to see some rulings in black & white!
#13 Guest_bluecod_*
Posted 24 May 2005 - 07:57 PM
Ken A, on May 24 2005, 06:12 PM, said:
I would love to see an actual legal document that explains the position on Marinas etc. I have never seen one yet but I have heard about 75 different versions of what is private property & not accessible & what is not.
Love to see something in black & white.
Love to see something in black & white.
Ken,
as you would be aware State legislation differs from State to State - what applies in NSW may be different in Qld, however the underlying premise in Australia is based on good old British Common law principles. Swoffa will confirm that principles of land tenure are friggin complex and there may be a good reason for the variations you've been told.
"Love to see something in black & white."
That can be accomplished - do you want a legal text or extracts of legislation?
"Recently there was an article in the papers regarding the use of private wharves and pontoons, in essance it stated that legislation had changed to the effect that the aforementioned structures were fair game to the general public. I have yet to follow up and see if I can find the legeslation, but it could be handy to carry around!!
Anyone else know/heard anything about this?"
Yes, there was a court ruling that has not changed legislation, I also understand there will be an appeal that may or may not change the lower court ruling. Georgeski v Owners Corporation SP49833 [2004] NSWSC 1096 (22 November 2004)
"As far as I was aware a lease only applied to the structures. The water below the mean high tide mark is classed as public.
Wrong! if the area is held under lease, the lease applies from 15.24 metres below the bed of the bay through to the stratosphere unless otherwise stated in the lease or if the lease is over strata titled land. In Australia the water and fish in the waterways are owned by the govenment - air navigation is a separate issue and is governed and permitted by Commonwealth legislation
"I had a run in with security at a wharf/marina near the city one day, and was told to leave as fishing was not allowed and that the water was private property. He began to tell me that the white pylons at the entrance to the bay were the boundaries of this 'private' property. I began to tell him that anything below the high tide mark was public, and he wanted to argue the point."
Sydney Harbour, Botany Bay and Port Kembla ARE private property - each has a Certificate of Title issued in the name of the Minister [NSW Maritime]. Technically these areas are not Crown land although they are administered under provisions of State legislation.
Thats a real eye-opener George. Looks like we could all benefit from some more research!
#15 Guest_Jocool_*
Posted 24 May 2005 - 08:58 PM
bluecod, on May 24 2005, 08:57 PM, said:
Georgeski v Owners Corporation SP49833 [2004] NSWSC 1096 (22 November 2004)
Searched for this on a law site. But my mind is to addled at the moment to comprehend it all! Seems to involve a jetty rather than the water itself...but I will percevere and see if I can make sense of it tomorrow!
#16 Guest_bluecod_*
Posted 24 May 2005 - 09:13 PM
Joe,
There have literally been hundreds of different types of leases issued by various government departments - each with their own set of conditions and requirements, some allow public access and others don't - the latter give the lessee exclusive possession [as if they were private property].
A number of marinas are held under Permissive Occupancies and a number are held under licenses - both these types of tenure generally do not give exclusive possession. It is in these latter cases that the fairways between marina arms may not be included as part of the tenured site.
This information will generally only be useful if and when a marina operator decides to sue a fisherperson for trespass, or vice versa, if the fisherperson is attacked by a security guard.
Generally let common sense prevail
Locations of where fishing may be restricted in NSW is obtained from NSW Fisheries website and currently includes 13 aquatic reserves declared under the Fisheries Management Act 1994. From north to south, they are:
Cook Island (Tweed Heads)
Fly Point - Halifax Park (Port Stephens)
Barrenjoey Head (Hawkesbury River)
Narrabeen Head
Long Reef
Cabbage Tree Bay (Manly)
North (Sydney) Harbour
Bronte-Coogee
Cape Banks (La Perouse)
Boat Harbour (Kurnell)
Towra Point (Botany Bay)
Shiprock (Port Hacking)
Bushrangers Bay (Shell Harbour)
Four Marine Parks where fishing may be restricted - they are
Cape Byron
Jervis Bay
Lord Howe Island
Solitary Islands
Some National Parks and nature reserves have fishing restrictions and you would have to contact the NPWS to find out what these are
As for Kuring-gai Chase National Park, the following extract comes straight from their homepage
Ku-ring-gai Chase National Park
Fishing
There's good fishing in the park's waters, both from boats and from the foreshores. Fish are numerous - particularly flathead, tailor, snapper, mullet, bream and jewfish.
If you're going fishing in the park, please be careful not to leave fishing tackle behind - wildlife can be harmed by it. Please also note that netting and spear fishing are not permitted in the park, and it's forbidden to collect crustaceans and marine animals from the rocks.
Before fishing in the state, you must hold a licence from NSW Fisheries.
If you're going fishing anywhere in the park, you'll need a fishing licence.
Note there is no mention of fishing restrictions in this park.
There have literally been hundreds of different types of leases issued by various government departments - each with their own set of conditions and requirements, some allow public access and others don't - the latter give the lessee exclusive possession [as if they were private property].
A number of marinas are held under Permissive Occupancies and a number are held under licenses - both these types of tenure generally do not give exclusive possession. It is in these latter cases that the fairways between marina arms may not be included as part of the tenured site.
This information will generally only be useful if and when a marina operator decides to sue a fisherperson for trespass, or vice versa, if the fisherperson is attacked by a security guard.
Generally let common sense prevail
Locations of where fishing may be restricted in NSW is obtained from NSW Fisheries website and currently includes 13 aquatic reserves declared under the Fisheries Management Act 1994. From north to south, they are:
Cook Island (Tweed Heads)
Fly Point - Halifax Park (Port Stephens)
Barrenjoey Head (Hawkesbury River)
Narrabeen Head
Long Reef
Cabbage Tree Bay (Manly)
North (Sydney) Harbour
Bronte-Coogee
Cape Banks (La Perouse)
Boat Harbour (Kurnell)
Towra Point (Botany Bay)
Shiprock (Port Hacking)
Bushrangers Bay (Shell Harbour)
Four Marine Parks where fishing may be restricted - they are
Cape Byron
Jervis Bay
Lord Howe Island
Solitary Islands
Some National Parks and nature reserves have fishing restrictions and you would have to contact the NPWS to find out what these are
As for Kuring-gai Chase National Park, the following extract comes straight from their homepage
Ku-ring-gai Chase National Park
Fishing
There's good fishing in the park's waters, both from boats and from the foreshores. Fish are numerous - particularly flathead, tailor, snapper, mullet, bream and jewfish.
If you're going fishing in the park, please be careful not to leave fishing tackle behind - wildlife can be harmed by it. Please also note that netting and spear fishing are not permitted in the park, and it's forbidden to collect crustaceans and marine animals from the rocks.
Before fishing in the state, you must hold a licence from NSW Fisheries.
If you're going fishing anywhere in the park, you'll need a fishing licence.
Note there is no mention of fishing restrictions in this park.
This post has been edited by bluecod: 24 May 2005 - 11:00 PM
#17 Guest_bluecod_*
Posted 24 May 2005 - 09:21 PM
Jocool, on May 24 2005, 09:58 PM, said:
Searched for this on a law site. But my mind is to addled at the moment to comprehend it all! Seems to involve a jetty rather than the water itself...but I will percevere and see if I can make sense of it tomorrow!
Don't even bother trying to make sense of that one Joe - some of the best Solicitors in the state can't, so how can we!
What it relates to is public access over a jetty that was held under a Permissive Occupancy, trespass issues involving neighbours and rights of access over private property and has got nothing to do with fishing around the structure.
#18
- JEWFISH
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Posted 24 May 2005 - 10:21 PM
bluecod, on May 24 2005, 10:13 PM, said:
Cook Island (Tweed Heads)
Fly Point - Halifax Park (Port Stephens)
Barrenjoey Head (Hawkesbury River)
Narrabeen Head
Long Reef
Cabbage Tree Bay (Manly)
North (Sydney) Harbour
Bronte-Coogee
Cape Banks (La Perouse)
Boat Harbour (Kurnell)
Towra Point (Botany Bay)
Shiprock (Port Hacking)
Bushrangers Bay (Shell Harbour)
Fly Point - Halifax Park (Port Stephens)
Barrenjoey Head (Hawkesbury River)
Narrabeen Head
Long Reef
Cabbage Tree Bay (Manly)
North (Sydney) Harbour
Bronte-Coogee
Cape Banks (La Perouse)
Boat Harbour (Kurnell)
Towra Point (Botany Bay)
Shiprock (Port Hacking)
Bushrangers Bay (Shell Harbour)
Are you sure about no-fishing in all those locations. I'm pretty sure a few of them are simply Inter tidal protected zones.
#19 Guest_bluecod_*
Posted 24 May 2005 - 10:32 PM
Bashir,
The intertidal protected areas are located at:
Bungan Head
Mona Vale Headland
Dee Why Headland
Shelly Beach Headland
Sydney Harbour
Bondi
Long Bay
Inscription Point
Cabbage Tree Point
also did a bit more research and it appears that not all the earlier information was 100% The following is also an extract from the Fisheries website
"What can I do in an aquatic reserve?
The type of protection varies within each reserve. For example in some reserves fishing is permitted, as long as bait is not collected in the reserve, while in other places, such as Cabbage Tree Bay Aquatic Reserve, you can only dive and observe the marine life and all methods of fishing are prohibited. For further information see the details on each reserve on the NSW Fisheries website."
The intertidal protected areas are located at:
Bungan Head
Mona Vale Headland
Dee Why Headland
Shelly Beach Headland
Sydney Harbour
Bondi
Long Bay
Inscription Point
Cabbage Tree Point
also did a bit more research and it appears that not all the earlier information was 100% The following is also an extract from the Fisheries website
"What can I do in an aquatic reserve?
The type of protection varies within each reserve. For example in some reserves fishing is permitted, as long as bait is not collected in the reserve, while in other places, such as Cabbage Tree Bay Aquatic Reserve, you can only dive and observe the marine life and all methods of fishing are prohibited. For further information see the details on each reserve on the NSW Fisheries website."
#20 Guest_bluecod_*
Posted 25 May 2005 - 08:32 PM
As indicated earlier this is a definition of a lease I obtained from a mate who is heavily involved in real estate law
lease_1_.doc (19.5K)
Number of downloads: 70
As the extract indicates, a lease gives exclusive possession, in the same manner you enjoy as if you were the land owner. As such, a lessee of land [or water] has every right to prevent your access to that land. This is why it is important to ascertain if the marina is held under lease or license as no exclusive possession rights exist under a license.
Number of downloads: 70
As the extract indicates, a lease gives exclusive possession, in the same manner you enjoy as if you were the land owner. As such, a lessee of land [or water] has every right to prevent your access to that land. This is why it is important to ascertain if the marina is held under lease or license as no exclusive possession rights exist under a license.