Jump to content


Welcome to Fishraider

Welcome to Fishraider, like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be a part of Fishraider by signing in or creating an account.
  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Customize your experience here

Photo

Braid for beginners


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   slinkymalinky

slinkymalinky

    MAKO

  • GOLD MEMBER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,766 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Gold Coast, QLD

Posted 21 November 2011 - 05:48 PM

The Fishraider forums have had countless questions about braid. Which brand is better? What's the difference between braid and fused braid? etc etc.

I'm not an engineer or a chemist. Nor am I a fishing expert. But I've picked up a lot of info on braids that might be belpful

Its a subject full of misinformation opinions often based on little more than the marketing from the braid companies... which as you can imagine is long on 'sell' and short on objectivity. So in an effort to give some clarity around the basics of braid, here's some knowledge based on a professional relationship within the industry...

I'm not going to go into braid vs mono... that's another conversation. But what I can say is that braids ain't braids and understanding the differences might help you decide what sort of braid suits your fishing style; why some are more expensive than others; and what some of the basic jargon and concepts around braid mean.

SPECTRA VS DYNEEMA
First, virtually ALL of the lines we commonly call braid are made from the same basic material. Gel spun Polyethylene (GSP). Both Fused and Braided 'braids' are made from this same basic stuff. GSP threads are made under 2 trade names... Spectra (manufactured by Honeywell International) and Dyneema (manufactured by Dutch company, DSL). These are simply 2 brands of essentially the same stuff and again virtually ALL manufacturers of GSP fishing line source their fibres from either or both sources.

When fishos talk about Dyneema, Spectra, Braid, GSP, Gel Spun, Polyethylene and so on, they're therefore talking about the same basic material.

The differences between the final fishing lines we buy are in how the different lines are put together by the final manufacturer.

BRAID VS FUSED BRAID:

GSP fishing lines get their strength from the weaving or laminating of many GSP fibres... Braids achieve this by 'braiding' fibres together while fused braids use a proprietary form of 'heat welding' the fibres together. When you realise that the average single GSP fibre used by most manufacturers will be around 100 Denier (that means that 9000m of the thread will weight 100g!!), you'll get a sense of how many fibres go into the ultimate line.

For us as fishos, the main things to be aware of is that fused GSP lines are cheaper, more stiff and thicker than their usual braided counterpart. This doesn't mean it isn't as good. Particularly in very light breaking strains (say under 10lb) it can be much easier to handle than the wispy fine braided lines of the same breaking strain. And while they still share the same virtual 'no-stretch' sensitivity of braided lines, their lower cost makes them a great starting point for people new to braid. Be aware though that in heavy breaking strains (say 20lb upwards) it can feel a little like fishing with fencing wire.

'JAPANESE BRAID' VS THE REST - breaking strain

Many fishos sing the praises of 'Japanese' braid. By and large, braids from Japan ARE very high quality but there's a few things to understand.

First it's often said that Japanese braid is thinner than its counterparts. In Australia and USA as an example, the rating of braid is done around breaking strain and is complicated by the fact that we have become used to the idea that a braid should break well above its stated rating. How often have you heard someone say 'it's rated as 14lb but it really breaks at around 25lb'. So much for clarity in information.

In Japan, the rating of braid is done around its 'PE' rating... a measure of diameter. Breaking strain is secondary. This means that many Japanese braids break much closer to their actual stated breaking strain.

So when you compare 20lb US braid with 20lb Japanese braid, one of the reasons the good Japanese braid might be so much thinner is that it might be much closer to 20lb. So you might actually be comparing 30lb braid with 20lb braid!!

GOOD BRAID VS AVERAGE BRAID - manufacturing
However, there are aspects to the way certain Japanese and other high end braids are manufactured that DO dramatically influence their relative strength and other performance characteristics:

CARRIER COUNT
This refers to the how many woven strands of GSP fibres are braided together to make the final line. Line manufacturers often advertise when they are '8 carrier' braids. This is beacuse the number of carriers effects the cross section shape of the final line. A 4-carrier braid will have a squarish cross-section and tend to flatten out when spooled onto a reel. An 8-carrier braid has a more circular cross-section so tends to be more uniform. And with a greater number of laminations, an 8 carrier braid can potentially be stronger than a 4 carrier braid of the same diameter. But it will also cost more.

PIC COUNT
A pic is where a single carrier crosses another carrier within the braid. A higher pic count effectively means a tighter weave and generally results in a smoother line. Higher pic count lines also mean more braid is needed per meter to produce as well as generally requiring better and more expensive manufacturing technology... so again it can cost more.

DENIER
The finer the source fibres that go into a braid, the more 'laminations' will be in a carrier of the same diamater than in one made with thicker fibres. The average for many braids is to use around 100 Denier fibres... Many better quality braids will use fibres as low as 50 denier and some Japanese ultra-light, ultra-premium braids will use 30 Denier fibres (remember... that means that 9km of the stuff only weighs 30g). This generally results in a final braid that is stronger for a given diameter so that often, regardless of the rating differences, premium Japanese braids WILL actually be finer for a given breaking strain.


HOWEVER... we have also been conditioned into thinking that somehow, Japanese writing all over a braid packet somehow magically makes it better. I don't know about you but I don't read Kanji so who can tell what many of the braids are saying. You DON'T need super-expensive braid to gain the benefits of braided line fishing. The top end of the market is really for people who either fish the extremes (ultra light, ultra heavy, tournament and so on) or for fishos who for whatever reason, want those extra small incremental improvements you might get is line capacity, casting distance, sink rate or so-on, which come from paying '$80 for 150m of braid instead of $50 for 300m.'


BAD BRAID
It stands to reason then that a lot of super cheap braid is cheap because it uses thicker denier fibres, fewer carriers, a lower pic count and as such, can be thick, rough, unreliable and just plain a waste of money. My advice to anyone buying braid is, regardless of whether you want value or super quality, stick with reputable brands. And preferably get info from people who have actually fished with them before (that's what these forums are for). You'll get no end of different opinions but you'll tend to see the same half dozen brands all the time.


Hope this helps... anyone who wants to correct any of this (remember, I don't profess to be an expert), add to it, or ask questions... feel free.


Cheers, Slinky

#2 OFFLINE   Basscatcher

Basscatcher

    SNAPPER

  • MEMBERS
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 592 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:voyager point

Posted 21 November 2011 - 07:34 PM

Wow Slinky I have fished with Braid for over seven years and this is the first time it has been explained fully to me....I am glad I have generally spent a little extra on my braid as you get what you pay for :biggrin2:

#3 OFFLINE   Blood Knot

Blood Knot

    JEWFISH

  • MODERATOR
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,476 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kellyville

Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:46 PM

Fair go Slinky

You got a PHD in GSP :thumbup:

Cheers Blood Knot

#4 OFFLINE   dchu

dchu

    FLATHEAD

  • MEMBERS
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 113 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 21 November 2011 - 10:15 PM

Thanks for putting it all down - very informative. At least now I can work out exactly what I need for my fishing instead of going for the next big thing.

#5 OFFLINE   Catchin Jack

Catchin Jack

    KINGFISH

  • MODERATOR
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,537 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central Coast, NSW

Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:29 PM

Great post Slinky, good reading and hopefully helpful to others.

#6 OFFLINE   Hodgey

Hodgey

    YELLOWFIN TUNA

  • GOLD MEMBER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,436 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Victoria

Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:23 AM

All you ever wanted to know and never thought to ask. :biggrin2:

Excellent work Tony. A lot of questions arise every year about braid and this will go a long way towards answering them.

Good on ya mate! :thumbup:

Cheers

Skip

#7 OFFLINE   LeoB

LeoB

    MORWONG

  • MEMBERS
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 377 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 22 November 2011 - 07:22 AM

Thanks slinky
That was an extremely interesting and informative post.
Cheers Leo


Cheers Leo

#8 OFFLINE   Mr Squidy

Mr Squidy

    WHITING

  • MEMBERS
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 281 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Gymea

Posted 22 November 2011 - 03:23 PM

Very interesting post Slinky, thanks for taking the time to put it up for everyone, will have me thinking a little more before my next re-spool thats for sure.

Rich

#9 OFFLINE   fryboy

fryboy

    FLATHEAD

  • MEMBERS
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 175 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Northern Beaches

Posted 22 November 2011 - 04:42 PM

Yeah, thanks for taking the time. Really appreciate it.

Fryboy

#10 OFFLINE   Big Neil

Big Neil

    WHITING

  • MEMBERS
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:MIA, NSW

Posted 26 November 2011 - 02:59 AM

Slinky, what an informative article that takes away most of the misunderstandings we fishos have concerning a vital element of our sport. I've learned from experience that you get what you pay for and find that mid price ranged braid suits my needs well. Thanx, Big Neil.

#11 OFFLINE   fishingphase

fishingphase

    JEWFISH

  • ADDICTED MEMBER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,943 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 November 2011 - 08:10 AM

Great info mate...

Go Fireline!

#12 OFFLINE   abecedarian

abecedarian

    TAILOR

  • MEMBERS
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 421 posts

Posted 26 November 2011 - 08:56 AM

One point that you missed that may be relevant to the differences between breaking stains of US and Japanese braids is the way their tested too. For brands like fireline the breaking strength is determined with an arbor knot (I think that's the one) tied into it rather than by a linear stretch method like the old school mono. That helps explain why some braids break well above their stated breaking strain.

Edited by abecedarian, 26 November 2011 - 12:15 PM.


#13 OFFLINE   jot

jot

    FLATHEAD

  • MEMBERS
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 194 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northmead

Posted 26 November 2011 - 11:52 AM

knots for braid different to mono. tried my regular knot for mono and it doesn't hold at all? ie thru eye then create large loop along side main line then pass line thru loop and main line about 4 times, wet , tighten then pull up tight.

#14 OFFLINE   abecedarian

abecedarian

    TAILOR

  • MEMBERS
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 421 posts

Posted 26 November 2011 - 12:10 PM

knots for braid different to mono. tried my regular knot for mono and it doesn't hold at all? ie thru eye then create large loop along side main line then pass line thru loop and main line about 4 times, wet , tighten then pull up tight.


The knot you're talking about is the uni knot I think. 4 twists won't be enough to hold the braid from slipping, you'd have to maybe double it, depending on the strength of the braid.

In saying that, you don't usually tie the braid straight to the terminal tackle (such as a hook) but instead join it to a mono leader using one of several knots. A double uni, albright, slim beauty or mid knot (for heavier lines) are the best in my opinion. The reason you use a mono leader is because it's less visible in the water than the braid and less likely to spook the fish. It also provides a shock absorber so there's less chance of pulling/dropping the hook.

If you do want to tie braid directly to a swivel or something like that then learn the improved clinch knot. That is the strongest knot I've found so far for tying anything to terminal tackle, in braid or in mono. It's also quite simple. The only difference between tying it for braid compared to mono is you increase the number of twists for braid as it's more slippery... I used to use a blood knot for my terminal connections and found that while the knot never slipped and came apart, the loss of strength of the mono was far greater than when I switched to an improved clinch. Mind you, that's my experience and isn't going to be the same for everyone.

Edited by abecedarian, 26 November 2011 - 12:14 PM.


#15 OFFLINE   Loves2Fish

Loves2Fish

    MACKEREL

  • MEMBERS
  • PipPipPip
  • 22 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Shellharbour

Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:19 PM

abec.... using that same knot u have described as u are pulling the knot tight, loop the remaining line through the hole Above the twists then pull tight to create the knot. this will prevent the braid from slipping through.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk