bisso Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 hi to all raiders, for those of you who had been interested in my post in march this year about the 5 month old 70 hp tohatsu engine i had which had seized. today i attended a tribunal hearing to have this matter resolved. i will post the full outcome in a week or so. for all persons looking at purchasing a new outboard, i recommend you ask for the warranty to be removed and get a discount off the price of the motor. the warranty isnt worth the paper its written on. secondly, ask your dealer for a FULL detailed description on all the safety systems in place on your motor as well as any options which are available. i learnt an interesting lesson about the interpretation of an owners manual today and believe me what you see printed in ink doesnt mean what you may think it to be. be very cautious about how you read the manual, ask as many questions as you can and hope that once you part with your dough, you will receive decent and quick resolution to any problems. finally ask the dealer what would happen if you had a problem with your engine. do they offer a new motor as a replacement or a quick turnaround. this may seem trivial at the time but when another 5 months has gone by without any resolve you may be wishing you were aware of this up front. i will notify further any outcome. at this stage it will cost me a heap to have motor rebuilt and another 2 months minimum without an engine. would i buy another tohatsu? dont think so!!!!!!!!!! cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wetpatch Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Sorry to read how you've been treated I think Ill stick with my Yamaha for sure Make sure you tell them that every one will know of the out come and how they treat customers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outnumbered Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 that sucks mate , but thanks for the heads up. plenty more questions to ask if i ever need to get a new o/b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
netic Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Mate sorry to hear your problem, my mate bought a yammy and it blew 6 months later and they replaced it within 2 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dont Shoot Da Chinamen Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 best wishes mate and when you win... raaaammmmm it down they throat with plenty of colourful language just for fun hope things turn out for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluecod Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I hope you win this one - but if you don't, to cover your losses sell tickets to an outboard motor wrecking party [100 tickets @ $30] advertise widely and wreck it outside the distributors premises on a Saturday morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reel_success Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 hi bisso i am very sad to see that this problem is contiuning down such a bad road. However may i ask who the dealers is, as when i recently bought my tohatsu (9.8HP) the sales men were treating me like royality ( got alot of free timtams ) and when i had a small problem, the cable connections from the tiller arm to the carby, they offered to deliver it back to my house once the repair was done!! Anyway the repair was done on the spot and i got more timtams!! It seems that you must have got a dud dealer. BTW The dealer was JD's Boat shed in taren point and they now don't have free timtams Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 The test of any companies warranty is not when you make a claim for a small part that most will readily repair, but when some thing major goes wrong and the repair bill hits the thousands. As I've previously mentioned I had a bad experience with a 6 month old Honda 50Hp which over heated and the block cracked. Strange thing is, I never got any thing caught around the intake, the tell tail was always going at full strength, no over heating alarms went off, there were none of the usual signs on the block like discoloured paint from over heating. But people from honda actually came out to the boat shop to check it out for them selves and said it was not a machanical fault but over heating, probably from some thing caught around the leg. They also said it was possible for the motor to over heat with the telltail still working and no arlarms sounding . My only saving grace is that the motor was insured otherwise I would have been out of pocket $8K. The boat shop which was aware of the saga to their credit gave me a very good deal on another honda so it was replaced with the same model, but that boat and motor were sold soon after and I wont buy another honda and by the sounds of things Tohatsu have a similar policy. Brisso, I know exactly how you feel as I've been there before and its not a nice place to be. I've now gone with evinrude as although I mave never had any problems, I know of a couple of boats that have gone back with significant faults and evinrude have been fantastic with getting these boats back on the water and not trying to place the blame back on the customer. Thats the peace of mind I want from a motor manuacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantm Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Hey Bisso, Sounds like a bugger of a time. Can I ask a few questions just out of curiosity? When you say you have been to the tribunal, are you refering to the CTTT ? If so did you go through through the conciliation proccess or was the matter head by the Member ? Was there any compromise solutions discussed ? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisso Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 Hey Bisso, Sounds like a bugger of a time. Can I ask a few questions just out of curiosity? When you say you have been to the tribunal, are you refering to the CTTT ? If so did you go through through the conciliation proccess or was the matter head by the Member ? Was there any compromise solutions discussed ? Cheers Cam, i went to the CTTT tribunal. intitially i went through the concilliation process to try an negotiate with the other parties. this consisted of the dealer which i bought the motor from and the importer whom issued the warranty. an option to have a member decide an outcome was available to be the next step pending an unsuitable outcome. i was informed by the tribunal that there would be a minimum three month wait to have the matter heard before the member. on top of the 5 months i had already waited, i took the importer and the dealers crappy offer so i could at least be back on the water by october this year at the latest. for interests sake, apparently the overheat sensor fitted to tohatsu outboards is to inform you that when the buzzer sounds, your engine has overheated, and NOT a warning to let you know that the motor is at risk of overheating...... i couldnt find that term in the user manual but apparently that is what is implied!!!! Hmmm!! i guess it all comes down to an interpretation of english... sorry, japanese translated to english!! i rest my case your honour!!! Mate sorry to hear your problem, my mate bought a yammy and it blew 6 months later and they replaced it within 2 weeks. that makes me even more shittier.... i had an independant inspection done on the motor by a yammy seller. he told me i would have had a brand new motor and back on the water within a week after it had originally happened.... hindsight is a wonderful thing... i really want a yamaha now..... The test of any companies warranty is not when you make a claim for a small part that most will readily repair, but when some thing major goes wrong and the repair bill hits the thousands. As I've previously mentioned I had a bad experience with a 6 month old Honda 50Hp which over heated and the block cracked. Strange thing is, I never got any thing caught around the intake, the tell tail was always going at full strength, no over heating alarms went off, there were none of the usual signs on the block like discoloured paint from over heating. But people from honda actually came out to the boat shop to check it out for them selves and said it was not a machanical fault but over heating, probably from some thing caught around the leg. They also said it was possible for the motor to over heat with the telltail still working and no arlarms sounding . My only saving grace is that the motor was insured otherwise I would have been out of pocket $8K. The boat shop which was aware of the saga to their credit gave me a very good deal on another honda so it was replaced with the same model, but that boat and motor were sold soon after and I wont buy another honda and by the sounds of things Tohatsu have a similar policy. Brisso, I know exactly how you feel as I've been there before and its not a nice place to be. I've now gone with evinrude as although I mave never had any problems, I know of a couple of boats that have gone back with significant faults and evinrude have been fantastic with getting these boats back on the water and not trying to place the blame back on the customer. Thats the peace of mind I want from a motor manuacturer. mick, can i ask if you had the block pressure tested? i ask because i had this done to mine as i had been informed that water ahd appeared to have been entering the block over a long period of time. apparently unless the block is at operating temperature, a crack generally wont show up. i was just curious.... glad you had insurance though.... i on the other hand didnt................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantm Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Its amazing how many times these hearings end at concilliation. Its an unfortunate lesson learnt too. They never hear the case straight up and most people dont know that. If you did it is more likely that you would settle out of court or be prepared for the long haul. One thing with the CTTT is that they really push for a concilliation result which is why they seem to drag it out for so long cause most people just cant wait. They therefore settle for a less than desirable result just to get it over and done with as they had gone ther to get a result. My gut feeling is that perhaps the Member would have been a bit kinder cause in my experience they tend to dislike missleading manuals and tend to go with common sense. Problem is like you say you would have to wait another 3 months to find out. Sorry you only got a crappy deal, no doubt the dealer is happy. Its a stressfull time at the CTTT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harold Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 i am sorry to hear that too. I actually introduced Tohatsu into the australian market place back in the late 70's and when i went to their factory in Okaya they were so strong on warranty support. They had the lowest incidence of warranty claim in the game. Of more recent times Brunswick Corp (mercury etc) bought them out so maybe things have changed. Very surprised to read this. I think Cohoe is the main dealer now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a boat Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Hi Bisso, sorry to hear of your continual dramas, unfortunately you are not the only one with troubles with Tohatsu warranties. As I mentioned in your earlier post, from what I have learnt the importer here into Australia buy the engines cheap from the Tohatsu factory without any factory backed warranty and then cover the warranty themselves, but they try to fight any and every claim. I have heard some incredible reasons why they have not paid warranty, which is a shame because most of the Tohatsu range are OK outboards. Harold, you are part right, Brunswick owns 49% of TMC so they do not have a controlling right and we have never had any issues with warranties on Mercury badged Tohatsus. In fact Mercury go to the trouble to get the Mercury outboards made with their own XK360 alloy which is very good for salt water corrosion. Best of luck and I hope it works out for you, Huey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisso Posted July 24, 2006 Author Share Posted July 24, 2006 Hi Bisso, sorry to hear of your continual dramas, unfortunately you are not the only one with troubles with Tohatsu warranties. As I mentioned in your earlier post, from what I have learnt the importer here into Australia buy the engines cheap from the Tohatsu factory without any factory backed warranty and then cover the warranty themselves, but they try to fight any and every claim. I have heard some incredible reasons why they have not paid warranty, which is a shame because most of the Tohatsu range are OK outboards. Harold, you are part right, Brunswick owns 49% of TMC so they do not have a controlling right and we have never had any issues with warranties on Mercury badged Tohatsus. In fact Mercury go to the trouble to get the Mercury outboards made with their own XK360 alloy which is very good for salt water corrosion. Best of luck and I hope it works out for you, Huey. thanks for your support and info. i will post the details tommorrow regarding the full details of the tribunal... interesting reading for all you boaties.. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisso Posted July 24, 2006 Author Share Posted July 24, 2006 before i dulve in the explicit details. can i ask you all, how well do you both understand and have implicit knowledge of your owners manual. i ask this as you may well be put in the same predicament as i was. the element of doubt and interpretation is mystifying in the legal world.... i recommend to all of you not to look at buying tohatsu due to their overheat warning being an alarm to let you know that the motor has in fact (i quote this from the importer) reached an overheat situation and that technically the warning horn should not be fitted to outboards as the consumer relies on it to prevent damage........... you make your mind up on that one... the last post was correct in implying that the importer, "lakeside marine" in this instance(whom are the oceanic importer etc) provide the warranty and will endeavour to strenuously deny any claim against them. (looks good for their situation and records). apparently it could be alleged that they purchase a motor, such as the one i bought for about $3200, for every twenty they sell a free motor is given to them. a minimum order could be in the range of 200 units, therefore ten(10) of these would be cream for lakeside marine.... the importer then sells the motors with the importers warranty for say 100% markup, therefore $6400, the dealer adds his $1000 min to price, to which we arrive at the price the poor consumer pays. i will continue this tommorrow due to my ire and anger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisso Posted July 25, 2006 Author Share Posted July 25, 2006 (edited) Sympathy for your pain. I am somewhat stunned by this 100% mark up as there's usually no margin in an honest living. This is a bloody rip off. The market obviously needs "real" competition and fewer second hand car dealers. Keep us posted Bisso. Is that a typo:- "and that technically the warning horn should not be fitted to outboards as the consumer relies on it to prevent damage.." or do they do this so your engine fails and dies quicker?? I was informed of the price by a reliable source within the industry and wish to keep them anon.... And no that wasnt a typo!! that was the words from the technical and training officer for the importer. they are the words that came from his mouth and thats a "quote/unquote". if you are stunned by that, imagine my surprise when i was informed of that at the time. i was completely shocked. why bother having an overheat alarm if it is only in place to inform you that you have cooked your engine and best of all........... completely voided your warranty.... thanks very much and have a nice day. i guess its a shame that outboard motors arent like cars, where enough people can cause a ruckous and make the industry quiver in fear of the consumer. instead we are facing a david and goliath battle..... guess i am just another poor dave.. Edited July 25, 2006 by bisso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantm Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Damn shame Bisso. You know heinsight is a wonderfull thing isnt it. It would have been interesting to hear their response had you responded to the quote by the manufacturer regarding the warning buzzer, as follows : As per the English language dictionary : "Warning An intimation, threat, or sign of impending danger or evil. Advice to beware. Counsel to desist from a specified undesirable course of action. A cautionary or deterrent example. Something, such as a signal, that warns. " If Tohatsu engineers speak the English language their arguement is lost if they choose to use the word 'warning'. One can not argue the point that if they themselves have labelled it a "warning buzzer" and by defenition they are at fault. Although he said it should not be there, well it is there and called a warning buzzer. Unfortunatley or fortunately its a game of words at the CTTT. Many cases area decided upon on such minor details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisso Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Damn shame Bisso. You know heinsight is a wonderfull thing isnt it. It would have been interesting to hear their response had you responded to the quote by the manufacturer regarding the warning buzzer, as follows : As per the English language dictionary : "Warning An intimation, threat, or sign of impending danger or evil. Advice to beware. Counsel to desist from a specified undesirable course of action. A cautionary or deterrent example. Something, such as a signal, that warns. " If Tohatsu engineers speak the English language their arguement is lost if they choose to use the word 'warning'. One can not argue the point that if they themselves have labelled it a "warning buzzer" and by defenition they are at fault. Although he said it should not be there, well it is there and called a warning buzzer. Unfortunatley or fortunately its a game of words at the CTTT. Many cases area decided upon on such minor details. very interesting point you have raised there!!!!! in summation, the deal agreed to at the hearing was, i pay for the cost of the replacement parts to rebuild the engine, being $1262.03 (plus incidentals). i pay the dealer a fee of $1000 for labour (plus incidentals) as well as a fee of $203.50 which was for pressure testing the block to check for any porosities. i cant see how the last item is valid considering the block is tested cold and as we all know, cold contracts....... anyhow the net result is me paying $2465.53 (plus incidentals) to get my engine back in one working piece. on top of that, the dealer supplies a mere three month warranty on the rebuild and lakeside marines warranty doesnt alter, i.e there is no new warranty, only a continuity on the rest of the engine.. perhaps it would have been better for me to pay an additional $800 and get a new motor at wholesale price and they could have the other one to fix up and sell.... they werent interested.. wonder why!!!!!!!!!!! if anyone is interested, i would be glad to discuss the ins and outs of the entire event (5 months+) however i wouldnt burden you all by posting the details here as some of you may not be interested... i do pity the current owners of tohatsu outboards and i iterate that i in now way, am attempting to undermine their value in any way, shape or form. i sincerely hope to those owners that you dont come across a major drama with your motors and you all have many years trouble free as i too desired.. i fear however, that resale values arent high on the list of this particular brand of outboard and i guess i will have to make do with the patched up one i get back. i mean, who would want to buy one secondhand? p.m me if you wish to discuss further, in my final post i will name the dealer whom i bought it from for all of you to steer clear of..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightmanager Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 G'day Bisso , I have followed this thread with much interest , and find the end result disappointing to say the least !! I had really hoped that the " little guy" would have a victory over the evil multinational manufacturer. I would like to ask though , how much faith would you have in that rebuilt engine? Would it be necessary to go through this whole expensive process all over agin if ( shudder) the same thing was to happen again? Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantm Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Although your claim was specifically against the Dealer and the importer who underwrites the warranty, I doubt the dealer had much say in the matter other than to help the importer defend the claim. The dealer gets paid either way the decision goes, he is just doing the repair. Of course thats not to say they could have been more helpfull to you from the start ! Would you have had a different result if you bought it from a different dealer ? Me thinks not. Dealers cop a lot of flack at times ( deservedly so sometimes ) but it is the manufacturers who decided what is warranty and what is not and the dealers can get caught in the middle. Like I said though some dealers probably dont do enough to support their customers in times of need. And no, i dont work for a marine dealer ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisso Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 Although your claim was specifically against the Dealer and the importer who underwrites the warranty, I doubt the dealer had much say in the matter other than to help the importer defend the claim. The dealer gets paid either way the decision goes, he is just doing the repair. Of course thats not to say they could have been more helpfull to you from the start ! Would you have had a different result if you bought it from a different dealer ? Me thinks not. Dealers cop a lot of flack at times ( deservedly so sometimes ) but it is the manufacturers who decided what is warranty and what is not and the dealers can get caught in the middle. Like I said though some dealers probably dont do enough to support their customers in times of need. And no, i dont work for a marine dealer ! thats not really a valid point as the dealer i bought the motor from was all, you should do this and that until it went to a tribunal, where he then sat on his hands and said squat... fat lot of good that was. i think i know what TOHATSU means. Think Otherwise Help Anyone To Sell Us.. just my five cents worth. any other ideas???? fair dinkum, if there are other TOHATSU dealers out there that read this post, pray you dont have to deal with your importer. i reiterate, the warranty isnt worth the paper its printed on, and finally, if you buy a motor without a warranty, it should be covered under consumer law anyhow.... food for thought. a warranty is only something that makes a buyer satisfied that they have some sort of protection... bit like holding a hanky in front of a porsche and saying "drive at me" ..... enough said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisso Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 G'day Bisso , I have followed this thread with much interest , and find the end result disappointing to say the least !! I had really hoped that the " little guy" would have a victory over the evil multinational manufacturer. I would like to ask though , how much faith would you have in that rebuilt engine? Would it be necessary to go through this whole expensive process all over agin if ( shudder) the same thing was to happen again? Ross i dont even wanto think about that at this stage.... the thing that shits me the most is that my little kids havent been able to go out on the boat since the end of FEBRUARY!!!!!!!! that is crap............ money isnt everything, piece of mind is!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightmanager Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Amen. Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinc Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Bisso, Can I remind everyone who has not read your first post - The dealer checked out the motor after the overheating alarm, and advised all was ok with the motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisso Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share Posted August 3, 2006 Bisso, Can I remind everyone who has not read your first post - The dealer checked out the motor after the overheating alarm, and advised all was ok with the motor. exactly right!!!!! but what does that mean? apparently, the damage was already done and as the motor was taken to dealer the day after, no seizure would be identifiable. if another week had gone by then apparently it would have seized... for the record, the sticker i got with the motor states that if the buzzer goes off, move the boat to a safe spot and turn it off. this contradicts what i was told at the tribunal... technicality once again.. where does it end. it seems that onus is on the owner no matter what you are given. all care taken but no responsibility. just a damn shame... it still sucks big ones though... hope no one else has the same dramas and can learn from my misfortune... buyers beware i say. regards bisso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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