Etec Vs Yamaha 4 Stroke

[Guest jayse76]

Looking at buying a new boat and trying to decide between a Yamaha 60 4 stroke or an ETEC Evinrude 60?

Has anyone got either of the above? Any comments or recommendations? What are service costs for the yammi & ETEC?\

Cheers

Briff

[a boat]

Good Morning Briff, this subject has probably been the most talked about subject on any marine forum. Every one has an opinion and he is mine. I do sell one brand you are considering and not the other so take what I say anyway you like, but please remember I sell 4-Stroke outboards and the Yamaha range is really no better or worse than someone elses 4-Stroke. All 4-Strokes suffer from the same disadvantages in my opinion and in fact the black 4-Strokes will sell offer 3 year warranty while the grey ones you are looking at only offer 2 years.

Anyway, I personally would buy the 60HP E-TEC for the following reasons, it will give you the economy, emmisions and running qualities of a 4-Stroke with the performance and simplicity of a proven 2-Stroke design that has been used in outboards for over 80 years, there has to be a reason for this. The only real reason 4-Stroke outboards have come about is because of tougher emission regulations and this also is the same for E-TEC, but the 2-Stroke design has the "runs on the board" in terms of lasting over 30 years in the marine environment, that can not be said of 4-Stroke outboards at this time.

Also when comparing these two brands, ask and pay extra for the 3 year warranty from Yamaha and pay extra for a SST prop with the Yamaha so that you are comparing apples to apples. Also do yourself a favour and check out the gearbox sizes of the two engines and you will see that the E-TEC design is so much bigger and heavy duty than the Yamaha. The service cost of an E-TEC is about $400 every 3 years while the service costs on a 4-Stroke can be about that per year. Also make sure you are aware that if any 4-Stroke has a failure out of warranty, they are very expensive to repair. We know this because it has happened to us personally on a second hand 4-Stroke that we sold out of manufacturers warranty, but we gave a 3 months warranty to, that we had to refund the money to the owner because it was not cost effective to repair-it would of cost more than the engine was worth.

The only advantage I think any 60HP 4-Stroke has over the 2 cylinder 60HP E-TEC is that at idle, the E-TEC is quiet but the 4-Stroke will be a touch quiet, but on the plane doing the same speed that is the reverse because the E-TEC will not have to work as hard to do that speed, it will be doing about 1000RPM less than the same size 4-Stroke. There are exceptions to every rule and the only 4-Stroke I have driven that can compete with the 60HP E-TEC in straight out performance is the 60HP Suzuki, because it is a big cc engine, but that also makes it a very heavy engine and will upset the balance of most boats, especially if you are repowereing an older hull not design to carry extra weight of some 4-Strokes.

Just my 2 cents worth in this never ending debate, but probably my best piece of advise would be buy whatever you want, it is your money, but buy the brand of outboard that has the dealer that you like and trust, because every brand of outboards are reliable today, but as with anything mechanical problems do arise and you want to make sure you are looked after right.

Cheers,

Huey.

[Sammy0884]

I'm just throwing in my 0.02c here....

I am a huge advocate for the DFI two strokes, i run one myself (mercury optimax)... but i have to admit that the Yamaha F60 is one of the sweetest engines on the market, a small cc, four cylinder. twin cam, four valve technical masterpiece. Don't be afraid to buy one with confidence as there are many of these engines with thousands of professional working hours on them. They are incredibly quiet and smooth right through the rpm range. If you are running a heavier boat, you can order the "high thrust" option which takes a heavy duty gearbox from the F80 and runs a larger diameter prop for more grunt out of the hole.

People i know who have had the etec 60 have commented on the tremendous torque, but also on the vibration... I also can help but wonder why evinrude would run a 60hp two cylinder! alot of horsepower for only two pots. Every other motor in the 60hp class is either a 3 or four cyl, especially given that the etec 3cyls are such pleasant motors. Another point, the massive gearbox (like the yammie high thrust box), whilst providing excellent durability and such does absolutley nothing for your top speed, it is alot to be dragging through the water with only 60hp.

As for longevity, everyone knows that two strokes have runs on the board, but everyone also knows what nightmares they can also be. I still think that the e-tec's are yet to prove themselves, yes they are two strokes but as anyone will tell you they are miles away from a tried and tested std carby two stroke. In that respect i feel that they are no better or worse than the current issue of four strokes. Lets not dig up OMC's skeletons and talk FICHT DFI as i bet that everyone that chose the four stroke that day are still running happily.

Huey, I have been in three e-tec demo runs and am yet to even be satisfied, i think the dealers have really been selling their product short in regards to on water tests. Perhaps you could arrange a demo day on one or two of your boats fitted with etecs, one small and one large and demonstrate the full capacity of these engines.

[Boban]

I can't agree about the runs on the board as far as DFI two strokes are concerned. If we are to be pedantic, the four strokes have more runs on the board that the DFI's. There is nothing new about 4-stroke technology. Can the same be said for these new 2 strokes?

But if you want to tie up two boats, transom to transom, and do tug of war, then the E-Tec is your motor

The Yamaha is a good motor, so good that Mercury uses most of it to build theirs.

I also like the E-tec and the benefits seem genuine, but my mate has a FICHT (F..... if I can handle this) and with it, a number of problems. I know Bombadier took over OMC. I bought a Honda at the same time he bought his FICHT and I have had no problems. If you can handle the weight, the Suzuki 60Hp is one sweet motor. But like I said, heavy.

[a boat]

Hi Sammy, all valid points, but by the time you upgrade the Yamaha to the high thrust gearbox with SST prop I am sure the dollars would go up and trust me a 60HP E-TEC does not get left behind in terms of top speed when compared to any 60HP 4-Stroke, and will out accerate every 60HP 4-Stroke on the market. In fact I have run two identical boats on the same day, one with a 40HP E-TEC and one with a 60HP 2-Stroke Yamaha, with the so called high speed gearbox and the 40HP was only 2 MPH slower. As I mentioned the only down side to the 2 cylinder E-TEC is the low speed running compared to a small cc 4-Stroke, but by adjusting the idle speed via the laptop to suit a specific hull that might be having vibrations we have seen good results with the 2 cylinder E-TEC.

Your comment about the FICHT is valid especially the 1997-98 model 2.6L V6, they were the problem childs for OMC, mainly due to oil that was avialble then-it was carby designed oil and produced too much carbon which lead to stuck piston rings and then seizure mainly on engines that spent alot of time at idle, like offshore fishing boats-but that is ancient history now.We have heaps of customers with FICHT engine also running quite happily 10 years later, just as you said I am sure there are 10 year 4-Strokes still running and some that are not.

What did you not like about the E-TEC demos you went on, and lets be fair and see if a 4-Stroke of the same HP would have solved those issues you had with the E-TEC. Yes I agree and perhaps it is time that we get a couple of demo boats happening for an on the water day and show why we like them so much and anybody is welcome to bring their similar powered 4-Stroke boat along and we can run the our boats with E-TEC alongside yours to see which performs better.

The boats will be Stacer boats most probably and what HP would most people like to see-I2,I3, V4 , small block V6 or Big block V6.

I will keep Fishraiders informed on the prospect of a demo day with E-TEC,

Cheers,

Huey.

[a boat]

Hi Boban, there is nothing new in 4-Stroke technology when it comes to automative, BUT they are quite a new technology when outboards are concerned and that is what we are discussing here. DFI 2-Stroke have been around for many years if you look into it, and just as lond as 4-Strokes in the outboard game. A car engine, which is what I guess you are referring to when you mention 4-Stroke technology, gets a VERY easy life compared to an outboard. Show me a car engine that runs up a never ending hill with your foot flat to the floor and has survived with salt water running thru it, that is what an outboard is asked to do, when running on the plane they DO NOT get a rest and are pushing a load all the time. They are highly stressed peice of machinery that usually do not get that well looked after and get run maybe once a month.

Your point about Yamaha is valid, they do make good product and used to make some powerheads for Merc, but that was going back a few years now. If you want to dig up history it was Mercury that helped Yamaha get started in the outboard business way back in the 70's.

I think I will bow out of this now because every one has an opinion and it can go around in circle.If you like 4-Stroke outboards that is great and I wish you all the best with them and will be here to help if you have an issue with them. I personally run a DI engine and prefer them and it is interesting times for boaters with all these good products on the market and the ability to choose what you want.

I have to get some work done now,

Cheers,

Huey.

[Boban]

Hi Boban, there is nothing new in 4-Stroke technology when it comes to automative, BUT they are quite a new technology when outboards are concerned and that is what we are discussing here. DFI 2-Stroke have been around for many years if you look into it, and just as lond as 4-Strokes in the outboard game.

I did look into it and this is from the Honda site:

Honda introduced the first 4-stroke outboard engine in America more than 40 years ago. Back then, we were ahead of our time. Today, we’re still ahead of our time, leading the way in engineering innovations and precision manufacturing.

Dont get me wrong, I've got absolutely nothing against the ETEC. The same cannot be said for its marketing. It's just so anti four stroke it makes me sick.

[a boat]

Hi Boban, yes and the 4-Stroke marketting is not so anti 2-Stroke. I remember when Honda first came out here is ANY great numbers about 12 years ago they had an add where they took an old 1960 outboard and said lets compare it to our new 4-Stroke-if that is not the most useless comparison, than I do not know what is. BRP at least compared their modern E-TEC to a modern 4-Stroke.

I wonder if any of those 40 year old Honda are still running, becasue I can show you plenty of 40 year old Evinrude and Johnson still running, in fact there are many clubs in the states that only run old OMC engines.

As I said earlier I wish you all the best with whatever outboard you run and I will leave it at that,

Cheers,

Huey.

[Sammy0884]

Hi Sammy, all valid points, but by the time you upgrade the Yamaha to the high thrust gearbox with SST prop I am sure the dollars would go up and trust me a 60HP E-TEC does not get left behind in terms of top speed when compared to any 60HP 4-Stroke, and will out accerate every 60HP 4-Stroke on the market. In fact I have run two identical boats on the same day, one with a 40HP E-TEC and one with a 60HP 2-Stroke Yamaha, with the so called high speed gearbox and the 40HP was only 2 MPH slower. As I mentioned the only down side to the 2 cylinder E-TEC is the low speed running compared to a small cc 4-Stroke, but by adjusting the idle speed via the laptop to suit a specific hull that might be having vibrations we have seen good results with the 2 cylinder E-TEC.

Your comment about the FICHT is valid especially the 1997-98 model 2.6L V6, they were the problem childs for OMC, mainly due to oil that was avialble then-it was carby designed oil and produced too much carbon which lead to stuck piston rings and then seizure mainly on engines that spent alot of time at idle, like offshore fishing boats-but that is ancient history now.We have heaps of customers with FICHT engine also running quite happily 10 years later, just as you said I am sure there are 10 year 4-Strokes still running and some that are not.

What did you not like about the E-TEC demos you went on, and lets be fair and see if a 4-Stroke of the same HP would have solved those issues you had with the E-TEC. Yes I agree and perhaps it is time that we get a couple of demo boats happening for an on the water day and show why we like them so much and anybody is welcome to bring their similar powered 4-Stroke boat along and we can run the our boats with E-TEC alongside yours to see which performs better.

The boats will be Stacer boats most probably and what HP would most people like to see-I2,I3, V4 , small block V6 or Big block V6.

I will keep Fishraiders informed on the prospect of a demo day with E-TEC,

Cheers,

Huey.

Thanks for the well thought response Huey.

I think it is fair to say that there are no 'bad' motors on the market, at least none that we know of, some are heavy like the hondas and suzukis which displace alot of cc's and those like the yamaha and merc's that are lightweight sweet revving fours. There are many many more four strokes being sold than etec's and optimax together, so i dont think that i would be incorrect in suggesting that the DFi two stroke still has itself to prove. i would like to see the public response to the etec once they have some time under their belts, i think alot of the excitement behind the etecs is driven by marketing dollars, which is not bad thing provided that the product doesn't fall in a heap like others before it...

I would also like to see BRP compare their etec motors against Optimax's rather than the typically 'lazier' four stokes. I have tested two boats on the same day, one optimax and one etec, the difference was day and night! i dont feel that it was a true and accurate representation of the etec, but its too late when the dealer starts spitting excuses at me.. prop this, motor hight that, it could barely get the 5.1m empty alloy boat on the plane and maxed out at about 24kn.... needless to say i chose the optimax, and the sheer power and torque has served me well, even one day at Port Kembla where i towed a broken down 7 metre whittley cruiser 5nm in a 2.5m sea at 8 knots....another test i have participated in were a 115 v4 that maxed out at a noisy 27kn on a 560 bar crusher.

I would LOVE to bring my boat along and compare my 90hp optimax against a 90hp etec on a similar boat, perhaps even a tug-o-war like in the etec dvd i think the arguments of more moving parts = more problems, servicing costs and others should be left behind because all we are really interested is the performance on the water.

I think it would be best to bring three boats down, a tiller steer with 50hp, a 5-5.5m with an i3 90hp and a 150hp small block V6.. as these are the most popular motors with the three types of fishing that we participate in being river/esuary, bay/coastal and offshore.

[a boat]

Hi Sammy, I also do like the OPTI range of outboard, that is why we sell them also. BRP have always claimed that 2 is better than 4, so it would go against their marketting to compare with an OPTIMAX and will just prove their point-that is the offical line from BRP and it is valid, but honestly I think the OPTIMAX would in some areas outperform an E-TEC, especially in my experience of the 90HP. Your 90HP OPTI will outrun the 90HP E-TEC, but it is very close, I have done this test with two identical boats. The 115HP class is different and I would suggest that the boat had something to do with the noise you heard because a V4 E-TEC is one on the quietest 115HP on the market and I have run them all. It also one of the best performing even when it is run against the 115HP OPTI, which can not compete becasue it is only a 3 cylinder and a bit unfair. The V6 range is very close also but I think the OPTI with the compressor on the side make more noise than an E-TEC.

The only problem with OPTI is that they can not get it below 75HP and the size of your engine is quite large where the E-TEC will go down to 9.9HP and I am guessing we will see 25/30HP E-TEC very soon, which will be great.

I have been giving this demo idea more thought and have had a look at what we have in stock. I am thinking of a 50HP E-TEC on a Stacer 469 Nomad MP, a 75HP on 489 Easyrider and if possible a 2.6L 200HP on the big Stacer. I might also get a Coxcraft Rumrunner with the 115HP in the water because as I mentioned earlier the V4 E-TEC is such a nice engine and I think will go in history as one of the best outboards ever made.

I will keep you guys informed.

Cheers,

Huey.

[Boban]

I think we were talking about runs on the board. That's 40 years 4 stroke, how many for DFI?

As far as comparing a four stroke to an old 2 stroke. What else would they compare them to? Weren't you saying, that those 2 strokes haven't changed too much, proven technology,etc. They are the ones with the runs on the board. We all know they stink, and can be temperamental not too mention the other things.

What I think you are missing, is that I'm not anti ETEC. Not at all. They didn't exist in outboards a few years ago, and accordingly, your statement about runs on the boards doesn't sit well.

As to the marketing, why do all the ads I've seen avoid comparisons to the Optimax and HDPI Yamaha. All their ads seem to be directed at Four Strokes. The two that I can think of is where the four stroke owners are kicked in the nuts when they get their service bill, and the other, is where the Yamaha powered boat is dragged underwater by the ETEC powered boat.

Saying that four strokes are not suited to high revs seems to ignore motorcycles. My bike revs out past 13000 rpm and regularly sits at 5-6000 revs. Plenty of runs on the board there and they are designed to work that way. Much the same as the four stroke outboards are designed to work at those revs.

I just find this whole "too many moving parts" and "not suited to high sustained revs" is offered up as a future possibility in order to scare people off four strokes. I think the four strokes have been around long enough for some motors to have racked up thousands of hours. If there were any long term problems we would have heard about them by now, especially given the number of commercial operators who use four strokes.

Now I'll make sure this gets across.

I think that both types of these clean motors are worthy of consideration by someone looking to buy a new motor. But dont believe the "let's see in 20 years" hype being served up.

Here is my opinion for what its worth.

If you want ski boat type of acceleration, and will be working at high speeds constantly, then I think the DFI's are a more suitable option. If you any amount of trolling, with the motor at low revs, or spend large amounts of time outside, then I think the four strokes are more suitable.

My experience with my four stroke has been all positive so far. The same cannot be said for that technology that has been around for ever, the humble 2 stroke.

[Flightmanager]

Craig ,

I would be happy to bring along my HAINES 146 fitted with the Etec 75HP . This a a 14'6" fibreglass runabout , so it is a bit heavier than a similar sized Aluminium boat. I would also be only too happy to take anyone for a test run , if they were interested .

Ross

[netic]

Very valid points ,made by everyone...but in all honesty my good mate CrazyJohn has an etec and the only benefit i can see in the etecs is the fact that they are more quiet then a normal 2 stroke.....This etec sucks juice like theres no tomorrow......

We have discuss this and people have suggested that the computer could be off, Prop might need replacing etc....

But f.ck me dead....he spent 20k + on this engine to only be told it is malfunctioning and he may need to spenmd more cash on it.....its f...king brand new........and already defective....he bought the damn motor because of fuel cost...paid 12K more for the etec then a mate with a simalr boat who bought a cheap mercury because of fuel costs....and guess what.....the mercury sucks less......tell me is that fair...

You tell me if you have ever heard of a Yamaha four stroke wasting more fuel then a Yamaha 2 stroke....irrelavant of what prop it has.....

Etecs are a untested technology...if anything Johns motor proves that......

[Flightmanager]

I also can help but wonder why evinrude would run a 60hp two cylinder! alot of horsepower for only two pots.

Seems to work for Harley and Ducati!!

Ross

[Frantic]

Hey Ross i would come on board for a testy as i might be looking at a 75 or 90 for my 492F

[achjimmy]

Seems to work for Harley and Ducati!!

Ross

V-twins Ross. Think old Truimphs and Nortons, they were big paraell twins and they vibrated.

[Flightmanager]

Anytime Frantic , glad to put her through her paces for you .

Ross

[Sammy0884]

Seems to work for Harley and Ducati!!

Ross

ever ridden a harley or duc? they are noisy as all get out and they will rattle the fillings out of your teeth!

I believe it has more to do with convienience rather than design, i know they share alot of parts across motors, the twin pot 60 is a V4 115 chopped in half, which is logical, but crude in my opinion.

[Flightmanager]

Yes , I have ridden both , the Harley was agricultural , lotsa grunt , but as you mention , vibrates a lot . The Duke , well , that was another story!! Everytime a piston fired you travelled 200 metres !

My old Evinrude was a twin , a bit lumpy at idle , but not too bad at revs, the exhaust drowned out the vibrations !!

Boban ,

I think the marketing guys use the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke because there is such a marked dfference in many areas , power to weight , maintenance costs , and so on . Comparing an Etec to an Opti is like comparing a red apple to a green apple , the differences are minimal .

Netic ,

If you produce enough examples of a particular model , the law of averages ( and Murphy) dictates that there will be a few duds. Sadly , I think that John may have got one. I dont think it is fair to damn every motor that Evinrude make because of one bad one. You would no doubt recall the Tohatsu thread from last year. Even Ford and Holden have had their share of troubles with the internal combustion motor!!

I think that discussons like this are of great benefit to those looking at a new outboard. They can sift through the information owners and salesman provide , and make a more educated choice.

Ross

[ATrezise]

Ive just got to add my 2 cents here.

I read lots of threads on this and other forums that were very ANTI ETEC. I went ahead and bought one anyway. A 40hp tiller on a 4.2m Stessco Catcher . Now I may not have done a lot of hours (about 15 now) and I have had to have one injector changed (but thats a known fault that some are bad, not all, but some) and the throttle was initially set-up wrong (dealer issue) so its not been all smooth sailing, but Im very happy with its performance. It starts first time everytime I push that button, within milliseconds of turning over it starts. I havent tried starting it by hand yet but must do soon. A mate and I did just under 100km in one day (in a river) at a range of speeds from flat out (52km/h or 29kts) to idleing along trolling at 5-6 km/h and used approx 25L of fuel.

I vote ETEC.

[netic]

Netic ,

If you produce enough examples of a particular model , the law of averages ( and Murphy) dictates that there will be a few duds. Sadly , I think that John may have got one. I dont think it is fair to damn every motor that Evinrude make because of one bad one. You would no doubt recall the Tohatsu thread from last year. Even Ford and Holden have had their share of troubles with the internal combustion motor!!

Ross, I agree 100%, you cannot judge an entire brand on one bad apple but i think everything is unfair in Johns Case...John from memory spent about $26,000 on this motor, its fu...ked...maybe a bad apple.....he contacts ETec and what does he get...the run around.....this is unacceptable.....Evinrude is happy to claim there etec motors are the best on fuel etc...if so, they should be ready to bck it up should they fail....

Instead john sits there without a clue on whats wrong with his engine spending more casgh to get it right.

Evinrude should have a tech guy at his house finding the problem...not sending him all over sydney trying to find props etc.....I think 26k should allow you this privledge....

Evinrude has lost all respect from me after this stuff up and every time i read good reviews about etecs i laugh...i know from a personal basis that a review is all bull, i have mates who write articles on fishing products and they write positively about who ever pays them..The same goes with etec reviews....

I say go a trusted name...Yamaha.....rarely if ever hear a bad thing said about them...And Yamaha are a trusted name that doesnt let people down.....Evinrude Etec...well i know they let people down

[pelican]

Very valid points ,made by everyone...but in all honesty my good mate CrazyJohn has an etec and the only benefit i can see in the etecs is the fact that they are more quiet then a normal 2 stroke.....This etec sucks juice like theres no tomorrow......

We have discuss this and people have suggested that the computer could be off, Prop might need replacing etc....

But f.ck me dead....he spent 20k + on this engine to only be told it is malfunctioning and he may need to spenmd more cash on it.....its f...king brand new........and already defective....he bought the damn motor because of fuel cost...paid 12K more for the etec then a mate with a simalr boat who bought a cheap mercury because of fuel costs....and guess what.....the mercury sucks less......tell me is that fair...

You tell me if you have ever heard of a Yamaha four stroke wasting more fuel then a Yamaha 2 stroke....irrelavant of what prop it has.....

Etecs are a untested technology...if anything Johns motor proves that......

Hi Netic. Can you get crazy john to give us an update on where he is at with the motor. I was hoping no news was good news but from what you say that is not the case. Is he still using too much fuel after prop changes and has he changed the setup at all and has the ECU been downloaded at the shop???

[netic]

Hi Netic. Can you get crazy john to give us an update on where he is at with the motor. I was hoping no news was good news but from what you say that is not the case. Is he still using too much fuel after prop changes and has he changed the setup at all and has the ECU been downloaded at the shop???

Mate we havent had it out for a while due to the bad weather, he has purchase a new prop..(i think) but as i stated all the options that Evinrude have thrown at him means spending more $$$$$....which to me isnt fair considering he has already spent 26K on this motor....

But in all honesty we are where we started without a real reason for the fuel consumption, i personally think Johns motor has some major issues with it and I perosnal think Evinrude should come to his place and solve these issues or replace the motor entirely...but they dont sem too interested.....

Edited July 5, 2007 by netic

[Boban]

Today I got a call from an outboard engine mechanic of some standing. He is one person I trust and one person in the industry who many respect.

After we discussed the matters which he rang me for, I asked him about which motor to buy for my upcoming purchase in the 225Hp category. He told me that the Suzuki 4 stroke is one sweet motor. He advised against the ETEC for a number of reasons but none that I will repeat, as I couldn't answer any in depth questions as to why he doesn't like them. He did say that "in the end its still a 2 stroke".

I think 30+ years in the industry is a reasonable amount of experience. And I know for a fact that he has had a long association with 4 strokes and 2 strokes.

[Boban]

Well looks like you have your decision made for you, good luck with your purchase.

Cheers Stewy

He says with tongue firmly in the side of the cheek.

I still like the Honda though.... we didn't talk about them or the Yamaha. My only concern with the Suzuki is the fact that they pulled the plug on Australia a few years back. They are now being imported by Haines. For how long though is anyone's guess.

I do get the point Stewy, I will stop posting on the topic.