Repower 6.2m Fiberglass Hull

[zmk1962]

Hey Raiders,

I am starting to think about a possible repower of the trusty Haines 635L. It currently has a Merc EFI 200HP Saltwater series and  Mariner 15hp 4st Aux.

I don’t need the waterski pulling performance of the 200... but do like to do the long runs out to Browns, 12mile, Long Reef and FADs.  We typically cruise in the 30-45km/h (20-30knts) range - as that's where the hull sits comfortably with 3-4 on board.

All the 200hp 4Strokes that I have looked at weigh in at 227-270kgs.... which is a lot more than the 175kg weight of the Merc 200hp.

I have heard good things about the Merc 150HP 4stroke (200kg 3L displacement and said to deliver lots of torque) but I'm just wondering if a 150hp would do the job on my Haines?  

I am keen to hear from any raiders that currently run a 150hp (any brand) on a 6-6.5m fiberglass halfcab hull.

Either post or PM - which ever you prefer.

Thanks Raiders.

Cheers

Zoran

[Croydon]

Hi Zoran,

I have owned a 150 Merc 4s for three years now and I am very happy with it.  I have had 400 odd hours of trouble free ownership.  It's on a 560C bar crusher and has more than enough power for what I need.  A mate also has the same motor on a similar model Haines to yours.  He has about 600 hours on it and is very happy with it's performance and economy.  I'm not sure what prop he's running but it pushes his Haines along without an issue.  Cheers..........

Dave

 

[GoingFishing]

Mate i know were talking apples and oranges but have you considered Evinrude ?

They just released a 150HP G2 which is the same engine block as the 175 and 200hp. Low end power is the same as the 200hp but top end power is tuned down to 150. 

I just had one installed on my boat and the power of this 150 g2 is unbeleivable to say the least. Power steering and i-TRIM come standard

2 strokes get trash talked alot but ive owned two so far and as long as u maintain them propery you wont have any problems. 

[zmk1962]

On 11/3/2017 at 6:58 AM, Croydon said:

Hi Zoran,

I have owned a 150 Merc 4s for three years now and I am very happy with it.  I have had 400 odd hours of trouble free ownership.  It's on a 560C bar crusher and has more than enough power for what I need.  A mate also has the same motor on a similar model Haines to yours.  He has about 600 hours on it and is very happy with it's performance and economy.  I'm not sure what prop he's running but it pushes his Haines along without an issue.  Cheers..........

Dave

 

Thanks Dave...good to hear more positive reviews. Would you mind asking your mate if he is ok for a 5min chat (I have PM'd you my mobile, he can text me and I'll call him)... Cheers Z

[zmk1962]

On 11/3/2017 at 7:14 AM, GoingFishing said:

Mate i know were talking apples and oranges but have you considered Evinrude ?

They just released a 150HP G2 which is the same engine block as the 175 and 200hp. Low end power is the same as the 200hp but top end power is tuned down to 150. 

I just had one installed on my boat and the power of this 150 g2 is unbeleivable to say the least. Power steering and i-TRIM come standard

2 strokes get trash talked alot but ive owned two so far and as long as u maintain them propery you wont have any problems. 

Hi GoingFishing, Thanks for the input and taking time to reply.  The main thing I am looking for right now is peoples experiences with a 150hp on a 6m fibreglass hull.  So I am really not too concerned at present whether its 2St or 4St.

But yes I have looked at the eTecs. A mates cousin also has an eTec on his Seafarer and is happy with it.  I understand the design behind the DI 2St and how they are achieving the power/economy/emission results but I just have this feeling the Evinrude are out there on their own. I mean just about everyone else is working on technical advances in 4st in both marine and auto fields and I don't hear much about 2St DI except from Evinrude.  I fear it may end up a bit like the Sony Beta vs VHS scenario.  I don't put a lot of wear and tear on my gear (too busy) so tend to hold onto my motors for quite a while - perhaps too long. So to me its also important that I can access mechanics down the track that are familiar with the technology. There just seems to be a lot more going on in the 4St world with all the outboard manufacturers.  I may have it completely wrong, but it just seems that way to me.

Cheers

Zoran

[GoingFishing]

24 minutes ago, zmk1962 said:

Hi GoingFishing, Thanks for the input and taking time to reply.  The main thing I am looking for right now is peoples experiences with a 150hp on a 6m fibreglass hull.  So I am really not too concerned at present whether its 2St or 4St.

But yes I have looked at the eTecs. A mates cousin also has an eTec on his Seafarer and is happy with it.  I understand the design behind the DI 2St and how they are achieving the power/economy/emission results but I just have this feeling the Evinrude are out there on their own. I mean just about everyone else is working on technical advances in 4st in both marine and auto fields and I don't hear much about 2St DI except from Evinrude.  I fear it may end up a bit like the Sony Beta vs VHS scenario.  I don't put a lot of wear and tear on my gear (too busy) so tend to hold onto my motors for quite a while - perhaps too long. So to me its also important that I can access mechanics down the track that are familiar with the technology. There just seems to be a lot more going on in the 4St world with all the outboard manufacturers.  I may have it completely wrong, but it just seems that way to me.

Cheers

Zoran

I hear what your saying, and that all makes sense. At the end of the day selecting a motor is much like selecting a boat in the first place, what is the best fit for purpose based on what u want to do with your boat.

some food for thought though, Evinrude isnt big in Aus, but back in the US they are massive and have a big portion of the market there. 

Also, Telwater who owns quintrex australia and yellowfin boats now has purchased exclusive rights to sell Evinrude motors in Aus. Quintrex is Australias biggest boat seller by quantity and they are now being fitted with Evinrude motors in the factory, both with 5 year hull and motor warranty. Thats not even getting into the technical comparison of fuel economy/power etc etc

id say, you will be seeing a whole lot more evinrudes on the water in the next 5-10 years and u wont find a shortage of mechanics who know them.

good luck with your motor hunting  id be happy to provide more info via PM

Edited November 4, 2017 by GoingFishing

[zmk1962]

Thanks GoingFishing ... great info... it's not readily avaialable .... it comes from genuine folks that are prepared to share on the few sites like this one. I have sent you a PM... Cheers Z

[PaddyT]

I will only offer the following observation- go and have a look at people who use boats for  work- what do they use ? It doesnt start with E

[rickmarlin62]

im with paddy  90% of pros and oyster guys up this way all have gunmetal grey motors..for a good reason..they last and don't have probs..rick

[zmk1962]

I hear you guys....

[antonywardle]

Consider who will be servicing your outboard. I live near an ETEC dealer that I trust. 

I would also imagine that for every Evinrude engine story you hear, there will be the same for tuning fork or a suzie ;-)

Its about how well you look after your stuff

[back cruncher]

Hi all...2 strokes got phased out somewhat because they couldn't meet emissions.now they can get them as clean as 4 strokes.2 strokes are coming back.ktm has just released a new fuel injected motorcycle.2 strokes are more powerful and lighter with many less moving internal parts,so in theory 2 stroke should be more reliable.

if your going to repower with a smaller engine you should consider a modern 2 stroke,the bottom end torque will feel you've lost little to no power.

a mate of mine repowered his his trophy 21 a few years ago from a 200 2 stroke to a 140 or 150 4 stroke,the boat was a pig after the motor change so he got rid of it.he lost a lot of money on it,do your homework.

[PaddyT]

1 hour ago, back cruncher said:

Hi all...2 strokes got phased out somewhat because they couldn't meet emissions.now they can get them as clean as 4 strokes.2 strokes are coming back.ktm has just released a new fuel injected motorcycle.2 strokes are more powerful and lighter with many less moving internal parts,so in theory 2 stroke should be more reliable.

if your going to repower with a smaller engine you should consider a modern 2 stroke,the bottom end torque will feel you've lost little to no power.

a mate of mine repowered his his trophy 21 a few years ago from a 200 2 stroke to a 140 or 150 4 stroke,the boat was a pig after the motor change so he got rid of it.he lost a lot of money on it,do your homework.

How is comparing a properly powered 21 ft boat to an underpowered 21 ft boat a comparison on 2 stroke to 4 stroke? Agree with the homework comment

[kingfishbig]

19 minutes ago, PaddyT said:

How is comparing a properly powered 21 ft boat to an underpowered 21 ft boat a comparison on 2 stroke to 4 stroke? Agree with the homework comment

In the original post he was contemplating what back cruncher described, ie going from a 200 hp 2s to a 150 hp 4s. So it is a very valid point. Ie a big drop in hp coupled with the lower torque of a 4s (and extra weight) may lead to disappointing performance.. 

[PaddyT]

Yep good point-didnt go all the way back- Zoran would probabaly be better off thinking down the lines of a 175 to get what he wants 

[GoingFishing]

5 hours ago, PaddyT said:

I will only offer the following observation- go and have a look at people who use boats for  work- what do they use ? It doesnt start with E

I think with the recent advances in technology u will start seeing those motors that start with E on work boats. It is proven that 4 strokes have a longer life span and hence why work boats go 4steokws but the average fisho would really have to put in some serious fishing hours in order have problems. Average fisho with 100-150 hours a year would take 20 years to burn a 2 stroke as long as its maintained and cared for

Why would australias biggest manufacturer of boats partner up with an outboard thats going to be having problems all the time ? 

Anyway, theres no one right answer, every outboard application is different and everyone shud do their homework on what motor is best for them based on their own specific selection criteria. 

Like back cruncher, i am simply drawing attention a solution for his predicament, repowering an outboard with a smaller motor. Id say the power of the two stroke is a viable option

[zmk1962]

Hey Raiders, I really appreciate the healthy debate - we all have different experiences - and I really value them all. At the end of the day it will be my decision based on my criteria - as ultimately I have to live with it !!

I've had an excellent run with my black Mercury .... 18yrs before the first hiccup... It has been looked after and even now, my mechanic is telling me there is near new compression in all cylinders, strong spark etc and I would easily get many many more years out of the motor. So I am not in desperate need to change.

But at the same time I am aware it is an 18yr old technology, and many advances have occurred. My needs have also changes somewhat. So I am doing what I typically do, which is to get my decision criteria sorted so that when I see a good deal I can act on it immediately.  That's how I bought this 200HP - I had a 225HP Yammie that came with the boat. After 4yrs of using it, I had decided it was not the right motor for my needs and did my research and narrowed down my options. Then on the last day of a boat show - had a chat to a few dealers and bam there was the offer $12k installed !!! Done and dusted. Sold the Yammie separately and the change over for me was sweet.  

As I mentioned I am not set on 4St vs 2St ....I am after peoples experiences on 6m hulls with modern 150HP motors.

In my experience you can't just compare HP ratings especially across decades of motor evolution.

(I am looking at the 150HP class mainly because I am trying to keep the weight down. All the 175HPs that I have looked at use the 200+HP blocks and hence come with the extra weight - so you might as well go for the 200hp output.)

My research so far has had me leaning to the 4St and in particular the 150hp Merc as that has a 3L displacement which to me translates to low down torque. (All of the other 4St 150hps and even my current 200HP are 2.5L so in my rudimentary understanding rely on revs to develop the torque).

I also came across this review of a CBS Huntsman 6000 (6m hull) with a 150HP Merc 4St...(I'd love to see similar for the eTec G2 150 if anyone has found it).

PERFORMANCE - SPEED
4.2kts (7.8km/h) @ 1000rpm
5.9kts (10.9km/h)@ 1500rpm
7.1kts (13.1km/h) @ 2000rpm
11.7kts (21.6km/h) @ 2500rpm
19.0kts (35.1km/h) @ 3000rpm
23.7kts (43.8km/h) @ 3500rpm
27.6kts (51.0km/h) @ 4000rpm
32.0kts (59.2km/h) @ 4500rpm
35.3kts (65.3km/h) @ 5000rpm
40.0kts (75.0km/h) @ 5500rpm
40.8kts (75.5km/h) @ 5600rpm (WOT)

PERFORMANCE – ECONOMY
3.6 l/ph @ 1000rpm
5.4 l/ph @ 1500rpm
8.6 l/ph @ 2000rpm
11.7 l/ph @ 2500rpm
14.3 l/ph @ 3000rpm
18.1 l/ph @ 3500rpm
24.1 l/ph @ 4000rpm
31.4 l/ph @ 4500rpm
38.6 l/ph @ 5000rpm
52.0 l/ph @ 5500rpm
53.5 l/ph @ 5600rpm (WOT)

https://www.redbook.com.au/boat-engine-reviews/2015/mercury-150hp-fourstroke-review-49577?csn_tnet=true

My hull is older than the tested CBS Huntsman and probably 10% heavier, but this made me think that maybe a modern 150HP would do the job for me.  

Hence I am after experiences with that modern 150HP - 6M fiberglass hull combination.

Back Cruncher I wouldn't mind having a chat to your mate that had the 21 Trophy if he is open to it - just PM me - Y/N.

Thanks everyone.

Cheers

Zoran

 

 

[PaddyT]

Just saw a boat on an FB page that I follow- its a 2101 Striper which has a 150 Yammie on it- WOT it only does 25 knots- its essentially underpowered. Being a  yank boat with a wider beam etc I guess it would weigh a bit more than yours . i still reckon looking at the HH website you are potentailly going to underpower your boat with just 150 - 2 stroke/4 stroke or not. Also noticed you have an AUX motor on the transom, thats a fair bit of extra kilos on the bum of the boat

[zmk1962]

Thanks PaddyT... yup the 200HP Merc is 175kg and the 15HP Mariner is 50kg... so I am currently carrying 225kg. To compensate for the Aux and the live bait tank (35kg) which also sits on the marlin board I have extended my pod so that it does provide an extra 90kg lift over the standard Haines pod. The new pod provides lift at rest and helps hole shot ....then when on a plane sits clear of the hull water line. I have also installed a 100L fresh water bladder under the v bunks and recently the anchor winch (50kg)... so she is very well balanced with even weight distribution. My calculations with 4 crew... realistically 2200kg on the water. 

Despite that with the current 200hp she easily hits 50+knts at 5500rpm in calm water e.g. Hawkesbury: Juno to Parsley Bay, Middle Harbour up near Sugarloaf bay etc. 

Cheers

Zoran

 

On the water weight calc: Total    2155kg

=========
Hull    1100
Merc     175
Mariner    50
fuel    200
Water    100
Gear     70
Anchor Winch    50
3 Marine Batteries    90
Crew 1    80
Crew 2    80
Crew 3    80
Crew 4    80

 

 

[PaddyT]

Yep - I reckon a 200hp , BTW where do you get such lightweight crew!

[antonywardle]

I'm too heavy to be a crew member, but would love to drop in one day on my way home from work and take a look at your boat and meet another Raider.

 

I found these results for a 150 G2 HO on a  Quintrex Top Ender 570. Not quite like for like but might give you an idea

 

PERFORMANCE - SPEED
3.9kts (7.2km/h) @ 1000rpm
5.3kts (9.8km/h)@ 1500rpm
6.7kts (12.4km/h) @ 2000rpm
9.8kts (18.1km/h) @ 2500rpm
19.3kts (35.7km/h) @ 3000rpm
24.1kts (44.6km/h) @ 3500rpm
28.4kts (52.5km/h) @ 4000rpm
32.2kts (59.6km/h) @ 4500rpm
36.2kts (67.1km/h) @ 5000rpm
40.6kts (75.2km/h) @ 5500rpm
44.5kts (82.3km/h) @ 6000rpm (WOT)

PERFORMANCE – ECONOMY
2.1 l/ph @ 1000rpm
4.0 l/ph @ 1500rpm
7.7 l/ph @ 2000rpm
12.0 l/ph @ 2500rpm
13.8 l/ph @ 3000rpm
17.2 l/ph @ 3500rpm
23.2 l/ph @ 4000rpm
31.0 l/ph @ 4500rpm
38.5 l/ph @ 5000rpm
46.1 l/ph @ 5500rpm
48.5 l/ph @ 6000rpm (WOT)

MAXIMUM RANGE ON 95 PER CENT OF 95lt FUEL TANK: 126.4NM @ 3500RPM

[zmk1962]

2 hours ago, PaddyT said:

Yep - I reckon a 200hp , BTW where do you get such lightweight crew!

HA ! ... lets just say they are averages... At 70Kg my buddies call me a light weight... so you can tell where the extra comes in to make up the average...  Just sayin'   

Cheers

Z

[zmk1962]

Thanks for the stats Antony ... PM sent.  Cheers Z

[MainframeJames]

FWIW, in the states we ran 6 outboards from 5 to 200 HP, all 2 stroke. I'm 31 and they were all older than me. They really do last if you're not putting in pro hours and maintain them. These were all different brands including the notorious E. 

We used to waterski behind a 5.5m fibreglass tri-hull with a 75. That's without the 1 in front, so there's definitely a difference in torque. 

My experience could be unique but I wouldn't hesitate to buy myself a 2 stroke and I think I'd be pretty happy. 

[rickmarlin62]

in reality if you drop 25% in power you will lose more than 25% performance..therefore working the smaller motor harder to do the same speeds you do now you will be using more revs therefore more fuel..rick