Repower 6.2m Fiberglass Hull

[zmk1962]

Thanks MainframeJames ... my 200HP 2St Merc is 18yrs old and still thumping ... I really hoped this post didn't become a thread about 4St vs 2St ... I really wanted it to be a discussion about 150HP experiences on a 6m hull 2.2t load.

Cheers

Zoran

PS 1: Interesting name "Mainframe" - as some know...I have a history in mainframes....PM me with how that name came about. 

PS 2 : Hey Raiders... if you wanna debate 4st vs 2st experiences  ... please do but  that needs some other folks to post their interest and start a thread -- there are lots of unoccupied, unwritten posts to be made  on this great site  :-) .. and I will participate with my experiences as well....I promise not to be shy !

 

 

[zmk1962]

1 minute ago, rickmarlin62 said:

in reality if you drop 25% in power you will lose more than 25% performance..therefore working the smaller motor harder to do the same speeds you do now you will be using more revs therefore more fuel..rick

Hey Rick... yup well aware... thats the fundamental we 55yo's have grown up on....but look at the stats of the modern outboards:

19.0kts (35.1km/h) @ 3000rpm
23.7kts (43.8km/h) @ 3500rpm

I'd be happy as s**t doing 3500rm and running at 43km/h out to Browns...  There is something going on with the new gen motors thats putting the torque way down low in the RPM range.   I don't need the top end snap neck performance (...sigh there's the 55yo showing again!).  I just need to push my trusty hull at its comfortable offshore cruising speed which has always been the 19-25kts range.

Cheers and Thanks

Zoran

[rickmarlin62]

the main consideration will be whatever pitch prop your now running you will more than likely have to go down 1 or 2 pitches as you wont have enough grunt to drive it...I would guess with your top speed now you have a 19 or higher pitch to gain that speed..no matter what motor you go with if you have to go back to a 17 or 15 you will be a long way down from that top end which means higher revs more fuel less range and not having the punch to use in a bad sea...my opinion only..but ive just gone up in size from 60 to 90 and have more speed more grunt use less revs and using same or slightly less on my normal trips to broughton but im getting there and home quicker..i got stuckin last trip coming home and punched home at 30knots..i only used 5 ltrs more than I used with the 60...if weight is your main consideration do you really need 55 kgs of auxilury if you buy new motor...that negates weight differences..the new motors are more reliable and rarely breakdown..have you ever needed to use your aux..rick

[MainframeJames]

11 hours ago, rickmarlin62 said:

in reality if you drop 25% in power you will lose more than 25% performance..therefore working the smaller motor harder to do the same speeds you do now you will be using more revs therefore more fuel..rick

Great point with the power to weight ratio. Also what you said about the engine having to work harder to do the same job. Also also what you said about the prop. 

Save 100kg on the engine and you can also run with that 100L bladder dry and you suddenly have a boat that can take two more crew (or run like it has two fewer aboard). 

My point with the 2stroke story (which was not well made) was that the "sweet spot" can be different for the different engine types, so it's not just an argument of HP vs. boat length. 

With a well matched engine and prop you can almost certainly run at your optimal cruising speed with a smaller engine and even at lower RPMs, but again like Rick said, you then compromise the option of top end power if you ever need it. 

With cars there are tiny cars with tiny engines and big cars with big engines and in many cases they get similar fuel economy. But put your foot through the floor and you can only tell something is happening in the big cars. Same for boat engines I reckon. 

[PaddyT]

12 hours ago, rickmarlin62 said:

in reality if you drop 25% in power you will lose more than 25% performance..therefore working the smaller motor harder to do the same speeds you do now you will be using more revs therefore more fuel..rick

This- your boat is a big lump of plastic and needs a lot of grunt to get going and hold on the plane , comparing to a 150 (whatever stroke)on the back of a much lighter 5.7M aluminium boat is not a good move IMHO , you will regret underpowering a boat , you will never regret going to max rec HP , those haines hulls love power and sitting in the sweet spot of 4000 rpm will be easier with more.

[GoingFishing]

13 hours ago, rickmarlin62 said:

in reality if you drop 25% in power you will lose more than 25% performance..therefore working the smaller motor harder to do the same speeds you do now you will be using more revs therefore more fuel..rick

I dont think thats factually correct in this specific circumstance... we arent comparing 2017 200hp to 2017 150hp.

in this instance, we are replacing 20 year old 200hp technology with a 2017 150hp (2st or 4st) which appears to have equal to or better performance to push this boat. As Zoran has pointed out the current 150hp can push his boat along at 43km/hr at 3500rpm which is pretty good if you ask me. 

Also, the motor doesnt know/care whether a boat is constructed of aluminium/plastic/fibreglass so i cant see why the stats posted on the G2 should be discounted?? What will matter is the weight of the boat and the hull design, of which yes there are some differences between the tested boat and the current boat being considered and this of course will mean different results to some extent. But to say that the stats should be discounted on the fact that the boat is made of alumium alone is not right imo.

Edited November 6, 2017 by GoingFishing

[kingfishbig]

41 minutes ago, GoingFishing said:

I dont think thats factually correct in this specific circumstance... we arent comparing 2017 200hp to 2017 150hp.

in this instance, we are replacing 20 year old 200hp technology with a 2017 150hp (2st or 4st) which appears to have equal to or better performance to push this boat. As Zoran has pointed out the current 150hp can push his boat along at 43km/hr at 3500rpm which is pretty good if you ask me. 

Also, the motor doesnt know/care whether a boat is constructed of aluminium/plastic/fibreglass so i cant see why the stats posted on the G2 should be discounted?? What will matter is the weight of the boat and the hull design, of which yes there are some differences between the tested boat and the current boat being considered and this of course will mean different results to some extent. But to say that the stats should be discounted on the fact that the boat is made of alumium alone is not right imo.

His current motor is actually a 200 hp. I am not sure if the age is relevant either. Even an old 2 stroke will have more useable torque than a current 4 stroke and be lighter too (albeit using a lot more fuel). Remember too that older boats weren't designed with 4 strokes in mind and that's why the Etecs are often favoured for re-powers.

[zmk1962]

Hey Guys,

Just to answer some of the question...I am running a 19 pitch prop now with the 1999 200HP Merc.

Regarding the use of the Aux: Oct 21st I was 3km of Barrenjoey trolling toward some diving birds when the 200HP stopped. No cough no splutter just dropped revs and stopped. It would kick over but would not start. We came back to Parsley Bay on the 15HP Aux. It is the one and only time I have broken down with the Merc in the 18yrs since putting it on and it is my first on water break down since 1986. Diagnosis was  that the 200HP flywheel had loosened and spun which threw all the timing out.  The mechanic said this is the first such case he has ever seen in 50yrs of servicing motors ..and I said...if its so rare - why me?  But all jokes aside it happened. This is the first time I had to use the Aux due to breakdown .. however, we often use the 15HP to troll when we are out wide. Its a 4St and pushes the Haines along at 9-12kmh which is enough to get plenty of lure action on about 3-4L/hr of fuel or less.

Regarding water bladder - its handy when you overnight and we still do that occasionally. It is also a great counterbalance when at rest or trolling (not on plane), lets face it, I often have 3 crew standing abreast fishing off the stern. The boats rated for 7 pax, we often fish 3-4... so its like having someone standing at the front keeping the bow down. Personally I don't see getting rid of it it as a big game changer in my motor selection.

PaddyT - the 150HP 4St Merc stats I posted were with a 6M CBS Huntsman fibreglass hull.. not a 5.7m Alloy hull. But then again, I think its would be more a weight/length hull design thing than hull construction material.

Everything said regarding revs and power ties in to the rules of thumb that boaties are used to and have used for years - but as I said earlier -- There is something going on with the new gen motors thats putting the torque way down low in the RPM range. 

Regarding 4St : All 4St motors develop power on every 4th stroke of the cyl. Merc have split from the 4St pack with their 150HP 4st... they have gone for more cubes (3L block) a single cam (less moving parts= less loss) and a bigger bore - essentially throwing more metal around to develop low end torque coupled with reworked prop design. (All the other 150HP 4St are 2.5L blocks, twin cams relying on revs to develop the torque - conventional approach for cars and bikes.)  So I can start to see why some manufacturers 150HP 4St may struggle pushing a weighty hull from rest - and yes then the fix for that motor would be to go down in size on prop pitch etc.

Regarding 2St: Evinrude eTec have gone for an approach of keeping the powerful basics of a two stroke design (develop power on every 2nd stroke which is where you get the power to weight advantage of 2St over 4St), but redesigning everything else using hi tech - the fuel injection, fuel mix, lubrication. Imagine going back to the 2St drawing board and taking all the good things about a 2St and fixing all the bad. Seems revolutionary, but the hi tech that is used is not science fiction stuff its what is already available in the motor industry but packaged for marine use  - the only downside seems its just Evinrude on their own.

Anyway, for me its all a very interesting debate... I'm keeping an open mind as my 200HP is thumping along and again purring (growling) like big cat. After 18yrs its got near perfect compression and heaps of spark etc.  So I am not desperate to change it this season but I will keep an eye on the developments -- and keep in touch with the contacts I have established in both the 4St and G2 camps.  So if anyone else has a 150hp on their 6m hull - please PM me.

BTW - here is an interesting video - it is from the eTech camp...so take it with a grain of salt but if anyone has other research please post.  It's clear we are all passionate about our boating !! 

Cheers

Zoran

 

[Nolongeramember]

On 01/11/2017 at 11:11 AM, zmk1962 said:

Hey Raiders,

I am starting to think about a possible repower of the trusty Haines 635L. It currently has a Merc EFI 200HP Saltwater series and  Mariner 15hp 4st Aux.

I don’t need the waterski pulling performance of the 200... but do like to do the long runs out to Browns, 12mile, Long Reef and FADs.  We typically cruise in the 30-45km/h (20-30knts) range - as that's where the hull sits comfortably with 3-4 on board.

All the 200hp 4Strokes that I have looked at weigh in at 227-270kgs.... which is a lot more than the 175kg weight of the Merc 200hp.

I have heard good things about the Merc 150HP 4stroke (200kg 3L displacement and said to deliver lots of torque) but I'm just wondering if a 150hp would do the job on my Haines?  

I am keen to hear from any raiders that currently run a 150hp (any brand) on a 6-6.5m fiberglass halfcab hull.

Either post or PM - which ever you prefer.

Thanks Raiders.

Cheers

Zoran

Just reading between the lines. I think the only engine that will give you good power and keep to the same low weight that you want is another old school 2 stroke. 

Going from a 200hp 2 stroke to a 150hp 4 is a massive drop in grunt. 

[spotterone]

I've got a 2013 Honda 150 on the back of my Haines Signature 575F. It's a heavy boat with lots of gear on board, and I regularly fish with 4 people. 150 is the maximum the hull can take according to the plate. It used to have an old Honda 130hp 4 stroke on it, and I went up to the 150 when I repowered it. It will do 36kts on flat water at 6000rpm, and fuel consumption is a little over 1lt/nautical mile on average.

If I could, I'd go bigger again. I had the option of going with a 135hp, but paid the extra for the 150. I learnt a long time ago that having more power may get you INTO trouble, but it can also get you OUT of trouble.

I did a little bit of on the water testing with a mate who had a 130HO Etec on his 5.5m Seafarer. His boat is a lot lighter than mine, and consequently his holeshot is slightly better, but by the time both hulls levelled out, I was in front and ran away.

I was worried about weight in the back of my boat as well. You can very easily test how it would feel at rest - just get someone to sit on the engine cowl for a bit and have a look around. I did that, and noticed hardly any difference.

Regarding how it will perform out of the hole, I changed props a few times to get the perfect one. I found a 4 blade stainless Solas prop suited my combination perfectly. I also deliberated over fitting a foil for a long time. I had over 200 hours on it before I bit the bullet and fitted one, and I regret not fitting one sooner. Seems these heavy haines hulls don't suffer from being pushed about by following seas, so all you are left with are the advantages a foil gives. I've now got over 500 hours on it in some pretty terrible conditions, and have never had a single negative impact relating to the foil.

I often get asked why a Honda, and believe me it was a tough decision. I had no brand loyalty when deciding what to put on it, only what was the very best thing I could buy. I searched and searched, and the Honda came out in front, but only by a small margin. I have my reasons for choosing a gold motor, in that hp rating and that year model, and it changes with each year and size.

These are just my observations. Hope some of them help you make a decision!

Cheers,

Leo

[GoingFishing]

2 hours ago, kingfishbig said:

His current motor is actually a 200 hp. I am not sure if the age is relevant either. Even an old 2 stroke will have more useable torque than a current 4 stroke and be lighter too (albeit using a lot more fuel). Remember too that older boats weren't designed with 4 strokes in mind and that's why the Etecs are often favoured for re-powers.

Sorry mate im a little confused but it appears you are more or less concurring with what ive said in my post?

 

39 minutes ago, Hateanchors said:

Just reading between the lines. I think the only engine that will give you good power and keep to the same low weight that you want is another old school 2 stroke. 

Going from a 200hp 2 stroke to a 150hp 4 is a massive drop in grunt. 

Very good point

[GoingFishing]

13 minutes ago, spotterone said:

I've got a 2013 Honda 150 on the back of my Haines Signature 575F. It's a heavy boat with lots of gear on board, and I regularly fish with 4 people. 150 is the maximum the hull can take according to the plate. It used to have an old Honda 130hp 4 stroke on it, and I went up to the 150 when I repowered it. It will do 36kts on flat water at 6000rpm, and fuel consumption is a little over 1lt/nautical mile on average.

If I could, I'd go bigger again. I had the option of going with a 135hp, but paid the extra for the 150. I learnt a long time ago that having more power may get you INTO trouble, but it can also get you OUT of trouble.

I did a little bit of on the water testing with a mate who had a 130HO Etec on his 5.5m Seafarer. His boat is a lot lighter than mine, and consequently his holeshot is slightly better, but by the time both hulls levelled out, I was in front and ran away.

I was worried about weight in the back of my boat as well. You can very easily test how it would feel at rest - just get someone to sit on the engine cowl for a bit and have a look around. I did that, and noticed hardly any difference.

Regarding how it will perform out of the hole, I changed props a few times to get the perfect one. I found a 4 blade stainless Solas prop suited my combination perfectly. I also deliberated over fitting a foil for a long time. I had over 200 hours on it before I bit the bullet and fitted one, and I regret not fitting one sooner. Seems these heavy haines hulls don't suffer from being pushed about by following seas, so all you are left with are the advantages a foil gives. I've now got over 500 hours on it in some pretty terrible conditions, and have never had a single negative impact relating to the foil.

I often get asked why a Honda, and believe me it was a tough decision. I had no brand loyalty when deciding what to put on it, only what was the very best thing I could buy. I searched and searched, and the Honda came out in front, but only by a small margin. I have my reasons for choosing a gold motor, in that hp rating and that year model, and it changes with each year and size.

These are just my observations. Hope some of them help you make a decision!

Cheers,

Leo

From all of my research i would have to say Honda would be my pick from the 4 stroke outboards. 7 year manufacturers warranty speaks volumes

[kingfishbig]

 "As Zoran has pointed out the current 150hp can push his boat along at 43km/hr at 3500rpm which is pretty good if you ask me".

I was referring to that statement and pointing out his current motor is actually a 200 hp. Also I am not sure what the relevance of it's age in making comparisons.

[GoingFishing]

4 minutes ago, kingfishbig said:

 "As Zoran has pointed out the current 150hp can push his boat along at 43km/hr at 3500rpm which is pretty good if you ask me".

I was referring to that statement and pointing out his current motor is actually a 200 hp. Also I am not sure what the relevance of it's age in making comparisons.

Sorry i get what u mean now, just a typo, what i meant was the stats he posted with the 150hp test on his boat have him moving at 43.8km/hr at 3500rpm

age is relevant when comparing the performance of his current 200hp which is 19 years old to the performance he can get from a 150hp manufactured in 2017

[kingfishbig]

3 minutes ago, GoingFishing said:

Sorry i get what u mean now, just a typo, what i meant was the stats he posted with the 150hp test on his boat have him moving at 43.8km/hr at 3500rpm

age is relevant when comparing the performance of his current 200hp which is 19 years old to the performance he can get from a 150hp manufactured in 2017

Yes but I am not sure there will be a performance difference. The old 200 hp still has the 2 stroke advantages of torque and light weight. The main difference will be with fuel consumption, noise etc, which is not what he was asking about..

[GoingFishing]

11 minutes ago, kingfishbig said:

Yes but I am not sure there will be a performance difference. The old 200 hp still has the 2 stroke advantages of torque and light weight. The main difference will be with fuel consumption, noise etc, which is not what he was asking about..

Perhaps.... depends on which outboard it is. The 150. G2 has the same engine block and gearbox as the 175 and 200hp G2s. Low end torque is the same across all three motors as i know it and the 175 and 200 obviously perform better on the high end rpm range

[rickmarlin62]

one thing hasn't changed from motors made 15 yrs ago to current models..they develop their stated horsepower at a certain rev ..so a 15 yr old 200hp with 19 pitch prop at 5500 rpm will be doing the same speed as a new 200hp with 19p  at 5500...their peak torque will be at different stages of rev range  but they are still 200hp..weight and fuel consumption are the differences in the motors that are loosely classified as better performance...I have 2 mates with 17r haines set up for diving..they have 150 2st on one  150 4st on the other..same prop sizes..the 2st is 8knots quicker  which is better in their pursuit of speed from spot to spot in a limited hrs comp..the 4st uses less fuel but is doughy compared to the 2 st....imo if zoran dropped back to a 150 2st or 4st he will be disappointed in its performance..his haines is a heavy hull with very deep vee hul and needs power to get the best out of its design...zoran you aren't getting replies from people with 6mtr plus hulls with 150hp on them as most people wouldn't put that smaller donk on one...rick

[GoingFishing]

1 hour ago, rickmarlin62 said:

one thing hasn't changed from motors made 15 yrs ago to current models..they develop their stated horsepower at a certain rev ..so a 15 yr old 200hp with 19 pitch prop at 5500 rpm will be doing the same speed as a new 200hp with 19p  at 5500...their peak torque will be at different stages of rev range  but they are still 200hp..weight and fuel consumption are the differences in the motors that are loosely classified as better performance...I have 2 mates with 17r haines set up for diving..they have 150 2st on one  150 4st on the other..same prop sizes..the 2st is 8knots quicker  which is better in their pursuit of speed from spot to spot in a limited hrs comp..the 4st uses less fuel but is doughy compared to the 2 st....imo if zoran dropped back to a 150 2st or 4st he will be disappointed in its performance..his haines is a heavy hull with very deep vee hul and needs power to get the best out of its design...zoran you aren't getting replies from people with 6mtr plus hulls with 150hp on them as most people wouldn't put that smaller donk on one...rick

 

I think u might find this video interesting

 

 

In this video a 150hp motor is producing ALOT more power than a 200hp motor and thats not just in low rpm ranges. 

I would say not only do two equivalent 200hp motors produce different power but some motors produce better torque than other competitors with equal or higher hp

[rickmarlin62]

ok for starters its what ive been saying 2st is the better  your clip is comparing 2 against 4  try the same with 200 2st yammie..all this still boils down to the fact that if I had a hull 6.35 I would not fit a 150 to it...you luv the etecs  I luv yammies  but would you put a motor recommended for a 1000/1250kg hull on a hull that weighs closer to 2000kg...as I said no one is replying that has 150 on heavy hull...rick

[jeffb5.8]

Hi All

My mate has a cruise craft 6 or 6.2mtr F/Glass and he re powered from a 2001 / 200hp Yamaha 2stroke to a 2016 / 225 Suzuki 4 stroke. He loved the Yamaha but with the hours he does chasing the big fish the 4 stroke gave him better fuel consumption, quieter and longer range. But he did feel he had to go to the biggest he could fit and afford to make sure performance wasn't compromised as when your that far out and it turns nasty he wanted power to get home.

Another mate has a 6.4 Alloy and he runs a 150hp Honda 4 stroke which is a great motor good turn of speed and quiet, 300hrs and no issues. This boat is almost as quick off the mark as another mates 5.75 Alloy boat with a 130hp Etec, but the Honda gets him at top end fuel consumption is a line ball affair, Honda by a liter or two over the weekend. 

I also have a 115hp Etec and the two Etecs(2015 & 2016) in our group have had no issues, my motor had a minor issue of not switching off the run in mode after 10hrs so it fouled the plugs, fixed under warranty and sorted.

I think you need to stay above the 175hp and pick the motor with the dealer you like who is close to your area.

Good luck, between the Honda, Suzuki and Etec if $$ were not a factor and the HP was the same then i would pick Honda, Etec and then Suzuki.

[PaddyT]

Good point at the end Jeff - the local ETEC/SUZI dealer to me I wouldnt trust him as far as I could throw him , the local Yammie guy is a gem. 

[zmk1962]

Thanks for all the great posts Raiders and the PM's I have received. 

One thing that we all seem to agree on is that a significant factor in the choice of a motor/brand are the local dealers/mechanics that you trust. In my case I have 3 Mercury dealers all within 5-20min drive before I get to the 1st Yammie or Evinrude dealer at 35min drive. The Yammie and Evinrude guys are in opposite directions.  I would not touch the Honda dealer in the area. So you can see one of the reasons why I run a Merc.

Rick.. I know I am not getting a lot of posts to my specific question (150hp modern motor with 6m heavy hull)...as conventionally it would not have been done. But that was the whole point of my question and I am happy that already there have been a few posts/PMs come through.

BTW, I didn't see GoingFishing's last video as been a shoot out between a 150hp eTec and a 200hp Yammie 4St... from my perspective I saw it as a demonstration that a modern 150hp eTec can get the job done on a 6m+ heavy boat (the test boat was 7.3m, 2.4m beam, 3T on the water) ... and sure to your point putting a 200HP 2St Yammie (or any other brand 200HP 2St would probably also get the job done) .. but that was not my question.

Looking at those videos it also occurred to me that the USA guys are a bit ahead of us on access to this modern outboard technology... so I had a poke around some of their forums and sure enough this topic has been debated since 2014 !!! 

Heres an excerpt....

-----------------------------------

https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/610380-150-hp-4-strokes-mercury-yamaha-3.html

i bought a new sailfish with the merc 150 due to the dealer being a merc certified and they were yamaha. i couldnt be happier. The motor is super smooth and easy to maintain. I have the 220 CC and thought it would be underpowered but ive been surprised. I get 40 Top end and plains quickly. If i go to the 27' im getting the twin merc 150's

------------------------------------

I looked up the specs on a Sailfish 220C

http://www.boattest.com/review/sailfish/3191_220cc

Dry Weight 4,450 lbs.
2,018 kg(w/ eng)

As I go through this season on my 200 EFI work horse,  I plan to keep an eye on the US sites for a while. The US market is ahead of us, is far bigger then us down here, and the technology will address their requirements before ours.  So I feel as long as our dealers stay with the major brands/models that are seen un the US we'll be ok to take some input from the trends they are seeing there ...

Cheers

Zoran

Edited November 8, 2017 by zmk1962

[back cruncher]

Hi all...zmk1962,my mates not with us now.

the  2 things that bothered my mate was the loss of speed and loss of grunt,I always remember him saying is in big bad seas when having to drive slow he had to constantly work the throttle to keep the boat on the plane.with the 200hp it was set and forget.

horse power is a measurement of torque and rpm.

engines with more cc/Ci have more torque.

[Welster]

I’d be very hesitant to own a trailerboat that didn’t have near the max HP for the hull.