Second Battery Suggestions needed

[Sea Ranger]

Hello all

 

 I have a Haines Hunter 520 profish and want to install a second battery.  Where the first battery is aft under the live well on the starboard side there is a small raised area on the deck I imagine where the battery straps screw in.  Well that is how I got it anyway.  Not enough room for another battery on that raised section anyway.  I was thinking of having 2 batteries 1 for the .motor and one for sounders radios etc.  Does anyone run 2 totally seperate systems on board or is the dual battery system the way to go?   Also with a fiberglass floor do you build a battery box or screw in one of those plastic battery boxes.  Any suggestions appreciated

 

Bear

[Omally]

Hi guys just wondering are yous running out of juice or what's the reason for a second battery ( electric motor) etc. I run 2 in my boat but only coz I got an electric motor and the main motor / lights one was all ready in in located at the back but I had to get a bowmount didn't I haha 

[frankS]

I had 3 batteries in my bass boat, 1 solely for starting Rear, 1 huge 110ah for the lecky and a small 8ah for the electrics mid boat under floor, was a bit hard charging them but ran 2 charges and the start battery hardly ever needed charging.

Frank

[Omally]

I do however remember in my last boat I run my accessories off a second battery because every time I started the motor I don't know kept on blowing the zena diode in my live bait tank timer.... In my opinion more power the better never know might have to jump start the car or whatever reason if the boats big enough and quick enough why not hey 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Omally

[zmk1962]

1 hour ago, Noo2OzFish said:

Hello all

 

 I have a Haines Hunter 520 profish and want to install a second battery.  Where the first battery is aft under the live well on the starboard side there is a small raised area on the deck I imagine where the battery straps screw in.  Well that is how I got it anyway.  Not enough room for another battery on that raised section anyway.  I was thinking of having 2 batteries 1 for the .motor and one for sounders radios etc.  Does anyone run 2 totally seperate systems on board or is the dual battery system the way to go?   Also with a fiberglass floor do you build a battery box or screw in one of those plastic battery boxes.  Any suggestions appreciated

 

Bear

Hi Bear,

I run 3 x 730 CCA batteries under my rear seat. To reduce the number of holes in my deck,  I have screwed water proof formply to my deck to make 2 bases onto which I mounted the battery box straps and my 2St oil reservoir.  I did not screw the battery boxes down as it would be difficult to remove the batteries for servicing - I just undo the strap and slide the whole box out.

I run the battery connections through 2 switches, so that I can run off any combination of batteries - so I can make the battery circuits isolated or connected as I need at the flick of a switch (or two in my case - with 2 batteries you would only need one switch). I run my starting, anchor winch, electronics off the same live circuit and rely on a capacitor/noise suppressor to filter out the electrical noise (works well for me).

I have also installed a battery charging circuit that connects through a multipin male/female plug set up (it's the blue shrink wrapped cable you see in one of the photos) - basically means I don't have to get to the batteries for any reason except the annual battery service of fluid levels etc.

Cheers

Zoran

[Fishop]

I have 2 batteries one in the middle and one down back with a simple isolator switch (1, 2, 1+2, OFF) but I was thinking of going a VSR (voltage sensitive relay).  I sometimes have issues when restarting the engine my gps/fishfinder switches off.

From the bit of research I have done you connect your cranking battery to the first position and your accessories battery to the second position.  It isolates both batteries from each other so your cranking battery doesnt get drained using your accessories, and starting the motor doesnt disrupt your accessories.  It also charges the cranking battery first and once its fully charge, then automatically switches over to the second battery and charges both batteries until the engine is switched off.  No need to play around with switches anymore.  Sounds perfect but from what i can gather not everyone uses this system which makes me wonder why.  

Edited December 10, 2017 by Fishop

[Sea Ranger]

4 hours ago, Omally said:

Hi guys just wondering are yous running out of juice or what's the reason for a second battery ( electric motor) etc. I run 2 in my boat but only coz I got an electric motor and the main motor / lights one was all ready in in located at the back but I had to get a bowmount didn't I haha 

I've had batteries drop a plate before and I've read that the leading cause of trouble on the open water is a flat battery so I'm looking for some redundancy. 

3 hours ago, zmk1962 said:

Hi Bear,

I run 3 x 730 CCA batteries under my rear seat. To reduce the number of holes in my deck,  I have screwed water proof formply to my deck to make 2 bases onto which I mounted the battery box straps and my 2St oil reservoir.  I did not screw the battery boxes down as it would be difficult to remove the batteries for servicing - I just undo the strap and slide the whole box out.

I run the battery connections through 2 switches, so that I can run off any combination of batteries - so I can make the battery circuits isolated or connected as I need at the flick of a switch (or two in my case - with 2 batteries you would only need one switch). I run my starting, anchor winch, electronics off the same live circuit and rely on a capacitor/noise suppressor to filter out the electrical noise (works well for me).

I have also installed a battery charging circuit that connects through a multipin male/female plug set up (it's the blue shrink wrapped cable you see in one of the photos) - basically means I don't have to get to the batteries for any reason except the annual battery service of fluid levels etc.

Cheers

Zoran

Do you have any pics of your formply Zoran? I'm keen to see how you anchored those batteries in.

[Omally]

Yeah I say if ya can carry it why not hey... My 2 Nd battery I got for my leccy is a  hybrid deep cycle / cranking battery not sure how good they are ( will solely be used as a deep cycle unless I get into trouble) but that's what I was thinking I've had catastrophic battery failure before not on a boat but could only imagine 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Omally

[Great_White]

 Noo2OzFish

Try looking at an OPTIMA Blue Top.... can be mounted sideways/upside down , what ever way ....

Might fit in the slot you have free ... ??? On it's side ... ???

I have two (2), of these big buggers in my Stessl ....

Might help ..

Great_White

Edited December 10, 2017 by Great_White

[Fishop]

2 hours ago, Omally said:

Yeah I say if ya can carry it why not hey... My 2 Nd battery I got for my leccy is a  hybrid deep cycle / cranking battery not sure how good they are ( will solely be used as a deep cycle unless I get into trouble) but that's what I was thinking I've had catastrophic battery failure before not on a boat but could only imagine 

Yeah my second battery says something like 700CCA and 120Ah so I assume its a hybrid of some sort.

[shipwrecked]

I have the exact setup you descrie above. Starter batt (1) and all other electronics run off a second batt (2). Isolator switch as you describe. Typical switched to 1 for normal operation. Could be switched to 2 if 1 dies. Or switched to 1+2 for fast charging of either. Wjen 1 is chosen charging current is supplied back to batt 1. Connected to batt 1 is also a Voltage Sensative Relay which in turn is connected to batt 2. The vsr works on the principal if batt 1 is at 12 volts (or thereabouts), it will connect up batt 2 to charge it. This connection is timed and then disconnected (making sure batt1 stays charged abd doesn't give all its power to batt2). Great system works well and provides lots of assurances. Very happy with outcome. Things to note. If you dont do much motoring the VSR may not provide enough power to refill your batt2 because of the timed charging. I negate this by using a small solar charger to trickle charge whist on land and alwats have a full batt to start with. Lastly, voltage drops are something you need to account for. If your batts are clise to the motor/alternator all good. You may find that if you batt is on a long cable it may never charge correctly. This is where dc-dc convertors come into play ..........

[zmk1962]

20 hours ago, Noo2OzFish said:

Do you have any pics of your formply Zoran? I'm keen to see how you anchored those batteries in.

Hi Bear, 

Sorry was very busy last two days and now I am away from home so can't take a picture.  But I have drawn up a schematic of how it all comes together. I screwed two lengths of timber at the front of the formply base to prevent the battery boxes sliding forward (timber stops).  Two screws fix the formply base to the deck. I bought the battery boxes from whitworths - these came with nylon straps and plastic clips to hold down the straps. But rather then using the plastic clips (seemed fragile), I cut slots into the formply base and threaded the straps through that. Fewer screws and fittings and strong as. 

In the top left of the photo that I posted previously you can see the left most battery box with lid on, and strap tightened and sitting snug up against the timber stop.

Hope my sketch helps.

Cheers

Zoran

PS - to the other comments about dual batteries. A couple of comments: 

1.  I also had a battery drop a plate coming up from the spit at 5000rpm and everything went dead - the motor the electronics all dead. I flicked the switch, isolated the bad battery, clicked in the spare and we were off again - something to bear in mind if you like to troll along the headlands - I'd hate to have to muck around with swapping batteries or trying to jumpstart in those conditions. 

2. If you have an EFI motor, unless you are running amongst the latest EFI motors chances are you cannot even pull start the motor without at least 8-10V to the EFI high pressure pump. The pump needs this minimum voltage to prime the fuel injection manifold at the required pressure. No battery - no go. A good reason to install a 2nd battery if you are running EFI.  Carburettor models don't have this limitation.

[Sea Ranger]

Thank You Zoran

 

That does make sense now!

 

Bear

[jeffb5.8]

So I have a VSR and the 1 - 1+2 - 2 & off switch, I always put mine on 1+2 when driving and when I pull up to fish and listen to the radio I switch to Batt 2 only.

Then back to 1 + 2 start and drive home.

Is this the way I'm supposed to do it?

[zmk1962]

As I understand it a VSR will keep both of your batteries charged (it charges start battery and then when that is at capacity starts to charge the Aux, when start battery charge drops it switches back)... so if you are running with 1+2 just to charge them you may not need to do this if the VSR is installed correctly and operating correctly.

It's ok to switch to 2 when at rest so as to keep your starter battery in best condition for starting. But if you don't switch to 2 and stay on the starter battery do you find that you are draining the starter?

Personally unless I was pulled up for a long time like overnight I would find it too much hassle switching back and forth (esp if the battery switch is not able to be reached easily) and I'd get a bigger capacity starter battery. and keep the Aux as the backup start battery.  Overnight stays are a different ball game though.

Cheers Zoran

PS - In my case, I run with 1+2 since installing the anchor winch as that was the recommendation from Stressfree - those winches suck juice and its good to spread load across a lot of battery plates !!  I keep 3 as Aux starter. 

[Fishop]

5 hours ago, jeffb5.8 said:

So I have a VSR and the 1 - 1+2 - 2 & off switch, I always put mine on 1+2 when driving and when I pull up to fish and listen to the radio I switch to Batt 2 only.

Then back to 1 + 2 start and drive home.

Is this the way I'm supposed to do it?

My understanding was you dont need the 1 - 1+2 - 2 - OFF switch anymore with the VSR.  Connect your battery to position 1.  All your electronics to position 2 and the VSR does the rest.  Only charges battery 2 when battery 1 is full.  Isolates the two from each other so you dont accidentally drain battery 1.  You might want an isolation switch for when the boat is not in use and you might want a way to jump your starter battery if for some reason it failed. 

[Sigma]

41 minutes ago, Fishop said:

My understanding was you dont need the 1 - 1+2 - 2 - OFF switch anymore with the VSR.  Connect your battery to position 1.  All your electronics to position 2 and the VSR does the rest.  Only charges battery 2 when battery 1 is full.  Isolates the two from each other so you dont accidentally drain battery 1.  You might want an isolation switch for when the boat is not in use and you might want a way to jump your starter battery if for some reason it failed. 

This is exactly what I understand it is.....if the install is done properly.

I did the install myself and have never had an issue.

I turn my switch to "1" when I start the engine and leave it there. I notice on my dual digital display that whilst I'm driving the boat that the digital display for battery 1 rises (alternator charging) and once it gets to around 14.4V, it then switches over to battery "2" and the voltage on the digital display for battery 2 starts to go up.

When I turn off the engine, leaving the switch on "1", the voltage on display for battery 1 doesn't move but once I turn on lights, live bait tank or radio, the voltage drops on display for battery 2.....which is basically isolating my starting battery (battery 1) and drawing power from battery 2 (which is what you want it to do). No need to switch over as your VSR does it for you.

The only time you would need to use 1+2 is when your battery 1 (starting battery) is flat for an engine start and therefore battery 2 would help with the extra power.

Hope this helps (if I didn't confuse you all) 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Sigma

[zmk1962]

13 hours ago, Sigma said:

When I turn off the engine, leaving the switch on "1", the voltage on display for battery 1 doesn't move but once I turn on lights, live bait tank or radio, the voltage drops on display for battery 2.....which is basically isolating my starting battery (battery 1) and drawing power from battery 2 (which is what you want it to do). No need to switch over as your VSR does it for you.

Hi Sigma, given what you are seeing on your voltage gauges, in your set up it looks like the electronics are all hard wired to run off battery 2.  So in effect the battery switch mainly controls which battery will be used to start the motor. 

I'd be interested to know what happens if battery 2 dies - say two plates collapse and create a short?  Can you run your electronics? 

As I see it:

Position 1:  provides no power to electronics.

Position 2: has the shorted battery so no electronics.

Position 1+2: power is supplied to electronics from battery 1, but the shorted battery 2 would be draining battery 1.

--

Also, do you have another switch somewhere to isolate your electronics from the battery 2?

 

14 hours ago, Fishop said:

My understanding was you dont need the 1 - 1+2 - 2 - OFF switch anymore with the VSR.

Hi Fishop. I understand VSRs are aids to charging - so I agree that you don't need the switch to keep both batteries charged. 

But I still thought you needed the switch to chose the battery (or combination of batteries) for starting the motor or for powering high current devices like anchor winches. Are you saying that the VSR can carry high current loads and your run the heavy current draw circuit through it ??

-------------------

Thanks guys... I don't have a VSR installed and I have not worked my way through a VSR installation wiring diagram (it would be great if someone could post one) so just trying to better understand the new model VSRs and their application. 

Bear, I hope this is not straying too far of your original post on this topic.

Cheers

Zoran

 

[Sigma]

9 hours ago, zmk1962 said:

Hi Sigma, given what you are seeing on your voltage gauges, in your set up it looks like the electronics are all hard wired to run off battery 2.  So in effect the battery switch mainly controls which battery will be used to start the motor. 

I'd be interested to know what happens if battery 2 dies - say two plates collapse and create a short?  Can you run your electronics? 

As I see it:

Position 1:  provides no power to electronics.

Position 2: has the shorted battery so no electronics.

Position 1+2: power is supplied to electronics from battery 1, but the shorted battery 2 would be draining battery 1.

--

Also, do you have another switch somewhere to isolate your electronics from the battery 2?

 

Hi Fishop. I understand VSRs are aids to charging - so I agree that you don't need the switch to keep both batteries charged. 

But I still thought you needed the switch to chose the battery (or combination of batteries) for starting the motor or for powering high current devices like anchor winches. Are you saying that the VSR can carry high current loads and your run the heavy current draw circuit through it ??

-------------------

Thanks guys... I don't have a VSR installed and I have not worked my way through a VSR installation wiring diagram (it would be great if someone could post one) so just trying to better understand the new model VSRs and their application. 

Bear, I hope this is not straying too far of your original post on this topic.

Cheers

Zoran

 

Hi Zoran,

You are correct. All of my electronics bar the bilge pump have been wired so that power is drawn from battery 2.

I wired it as such, so that nothing can drain the main starting battery therefore knowing that I have plenty to start the engine. Bilge pump is wired to the main battery as you wouldn't want it wired (in case of an emergency) to a battery that could be almost drained (batt 2).

VSR's are installed as a piece of mind so that you don't need to worry about forgetting to switch over your switch manually. Also, the VSR switches the charging automatically (as your driving) from one battery to the other keeping them at their peak all the time.

In the case where you mentioned that if battery 2 died for whatever reason, you can then switch it to "1+2" on the switch and still use your electronics. Yes, it would drain battery 1 doing this but if I ever had that circumstance, then it would tell me that it's time to pack up and go. Some might choose to stay using the one battery.....it's no different to the boats that don't have a dual battery system installed and run the risk of discharging their battery. I'm fortunate to having a third gel battery (not big...like a small car battery) that I have as a spare if we plan doing an all nighter or weekend away fishing......but I have yet to use it.

The whole idea is to isolate your starting battery from other things that can drain it, automatically.....not worrying if you did it manually. Before I had a VSR, I forgot so many times to switch it over and that could have been costly. So, for a few $$$, I found that it wasn't worth the headache. 

Reading your posts over a long time now Zoran, and knowing how handy and knowledgeable you are, I personally don't think you would have too much (if any) problems installing this on your boat.

I will see if I can dig up my instructions that I got with the VSR and PM you the drawing.

Cheers

Dave

Edited December 14, 2017 by Sigma

[Sea Ranger]

23 hours ago, zmk1962 said:

Hi Sigma, given what you are seeing on your voltage gauges, in your set up it looks like the electronics are all hard wired to run off battery 2.  So in effect the battery switch mainly controls which battery will be used to start the motor. 

I'd be interested to know what happens if battery 2 dies - say two plates collapse and create a short?  Can you run your electronics? 

As I see it:

Position 1:  provides no power to electronics.

Position 2: has the shorted battery so no electronics.

Position 1+2: power is supplied to electronics from battery 1, but the shorted battery 2 would be draining battery 1.

--

Also, do you have another switch somewhere to isolate your electronics from the battery 2?

 

Hi Fishop. I understand VSRs are aids to charging - so I agree that you don't need the switch to keep both batteries charged. 

But I still thought you needed the switch to chose the battery (or combination of batteries) for starting the motor or for powering high current devices like anchor winches. Are you saying that the VSR can carry high current loads and your run the heavy current draw circuit through it ??

-------------------

Thanks guys... I don't have a VSR installed and I have not worked my way through a VSR installation wiring diagram (it would be great if someone could post one) so just trying to better understand the new model VSRs and their application. 

Bear, I hope this is not straying too far of your original post on this topic.

Cheers

Zoran

 

No worries mate.  It is all relevant.   I'm following closely.

 

Bear

[jeffb5.8]

On ‎13‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:28 PM, Fishop said:

My understanding was you dont need the 1 - 1+2 - 2 - OFF switch anymore with the VSR.  Connect your battery to position 1.  All your electronics to position 2 and the VSR does the rest.  Only charges battery 2 when battery 1 is full.  Isolates the two from each other so you dont accidentally drain battery 1.  You might want an isolation switch for when the boat is not in use and you might want a way to jump your starter battery if for some reason it failed. 

Ok

So I if select Battery 1 everything works on my boat, If I select battery 2 everything works on my boat, So I guess they have just wired the battery two in series.

[TSCTSC]

Hi everyone. Interesting thread.

So is it better and less hassle to install a vsr instead of an 1,2,1+2, off isolator switch? I can imagine that I might forget to switch the isolator. And how much is the vsr compared to isolator?

As for dropping plates, is optima the best then? My dealer says marine century is just as good. Is that true?

Is there a way to mount the battery on the deck to reduce pounding to the battery?

[Fishop]

14 minutes ago, TSCTSC said:

Hi everyone. Interesting thread.

So is it better and less hassle to install a vsr instead of an 1,2,1+2, off isolator switch? I can imagine that I might forget to switch the isolator. And how much is the vsr compared to isolator?

As for dropping plates, is optima the best then? My dealer says marine century is just as good. Is that true?

Is there a way to mount the battery on the deck to reduce pounding to the battery?

From what I understand (sigma will need to confirm) the two work together.  You still want the isolator to disconnect your batteries from slowly draining if you leave your boat in the driveway for a couple of weeks between use.  The VSR's I have seen are around the 50-60 dollar mark so not a bank breaker at all.

[zmk1962]

1 hour ago, jeffb5.8 said:

Ok

So I if select Battery 1 everything works on my boat, If I select battery 2 everything works on my boat, So I guess they have just wired the battery two in series.

Hi Jeff, they are wired in parallel through the battery isolation switch. Starter battery to 1, Aux battery to 2 and they have wired your start and electronics circuits to run off the common out (+ve) from the switch.  So all your electricity needs are supplied from either battery 1 or 2 or 1+2 ... and the VSR just keeps both batteries charged, with a preference to keeping battery 1 charged at all times.

BTW this is the way I have batteries and switches wired up (without a VSR). I do not separate my starter and electronics circuits.

Cheers Z

PS - if the batteries were wired in series you would have 12+12=24V running.

[zmk1962]

On 12/14/2017 at 6:10 PM, Sigma said:

Hi Zoran,

You are correct. All of my electronics bar the bilge pump have been wired so that power is drawn from battery 2.

I wired it that so that nothing can drain the main starting battery therefore knowing that I have plenty to start the engine. Bilge pump is wired to the main battery as you wouldn't want it wired (in case of an emergency) to a battery that could be almost drained (batt 2).

VSR's are installed as a piece of mind so that you don't need to worry about forgetting to switch over your switch manually. Also, the VSR switches the charging automatically (as your driving) from one battery to the other keeping them at their peak all the time.

In the case where you mentioned that if battery 2 died for whatever reason, you can then switch it to "1+2" on the switch and still use your electronics. Yes, it would drain battery 1 doing this but if I ever had that circumstance, then it would tell me that it's time to pack up and go. Some might choose to stay using the one battery.....it's no different to the boats that don't have a dual battery system installed and run the risk of discharging their battery. I'm fortunate to having a third gel battery (not big...like a small car battery) that I have as a spare if we plan doing an all nighter or weekend away fishing......but I have yet to use it.

The whole idea is to isolate your starting battery from other things that can drain it, automatically.....not worrying if you did it manually. Before I had a VSR, I forgot so many times to switch it over and that could have been costly. So, for a few $$$, I found that it wasn't worth the headache. 

Reading your posts over a long time now Zoran, and knowing how handy and knowledgeable you are, I personally don't think you would have too much (if any) problems installing this on your boat.

I will see if I can dig up my instructions that I got with the VSR and PM you the drawing.

Cheers

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks so much for your comments and the PM with your VSR specs.

I learnt something new from reading that...which is that some newer VSR set-ups come with a Dual Circuit Battery Switch - which keeps BOTH the starter and electronics circuits live at the same time but separate (ie they each run off their own battery)... and the VSR automatically charges one battery at a time, giving preference to the starter battery.  The dual circuit switch lets you isolate everything (turn everything off), run with both circuits active (but separate) or combine circuits to run everything of both batteries. 

All very handy and automated for every day operation and keeping both battery's charged. 

The only downside I can see to this set up is that it relies on both batteries being in a working condition.

So if you consider the scenario I described where you have a battery failure  (eg. one that has dropped a plate) with this set up you will either lose your electronics or drain the good battery if you combine the circuits. I know you say, that losing a battery would be the signal to call it and head back, but I fear I would not be able to start my motor at all if I combined the bad battery into the circuit and it dropped the combined circuit voltage to less than 8-10V (I posted before that some EFIs can have trouble priming the high pressure pump if voltage drops).

As I see it, to protect myself from this with your VSR set up, I would need to install additional battery isolation switches to be able to completely isolate one or the other of the batteries..so I can still combine circuits to get the electricity to where I need it - but keep the bad battery isolated.

I know catastrophic failure of a battery is a rare occurrence, but it has happened to me - with a 4yr old heavy duty marine battery - mounted at the stern where the vibrations and pounding are minimal.

Personally I have solved my battery charging issues with a trickle charge set up that I connect with one cable (mutli pin plug) when home, but if I was to install a VSR I'd probably go down the path that jeffb5.8 has installed... a VSR with a standard 1, 2, 1+2 battery isolator switch (with combined start and electronics circuit). I'd then have both batteries charging while on board and be able to choose any combination of batteries to operate from.

Note: with this set up since everything is sitting on the same electricity circuit, I have a large capacity suppressor installed to filter out spikes, engine and electric motor noise that might interfere with radios, sounders etc. Suppressors are standard car electronics stuff that has been around for years.

So net is, I don't think there is a right or wrong set up, but its a matter of understanding what you have, your boat/motor and its limitations. One is more automated (but is exposed in the rare case of catastrophic battery failure), the other is a bit more manual (but has no exposure).

Cheers

Zoran

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by zmk1962