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Starting an old outboard


Sigma

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Hello Raiders,

I have a question for the outboard experts.

I have another boat that I have had in storage at my in laws for the past 6yrs.

This was my first boat that I purchased about 10yrs ago and she's an old 4.6mtr Ally Craft (I think 80's model) with a 50Hp Johnson 2 stroke.

I started to do her up an spent quite a bit on her....new trailer (used only twice since purchase) , new custom bimini, new seats, new pedestals, new bait board, new steering cable set up, etc.....you get the gist.

Anyway, the time has come for me to move the boat due to the fact that the in laws have started to build a Granny Flat and its in the way now. As it won't be returning there anymore and as I have a newer larger boat that I use these days, I need to get rid of it. As its been sitting under a tree, it was quite run down. Last weekend, I spent two days cleaning her up and shes starting to look good again. 

To cut the long story short, my mate is really keen to buy her from me but I haven't started the engine in 6yrs. So, I bought new spark plugs, new leads and replaced the old ones. Also, I took the prop off...cleaned it, re-greased it and re-fitted. I drained the gear oil and replaced it with new oil. I have ordered a new primer bulb (as the old one you could use as a cricket ball :o) with hose and connectors which should be delivered tomorrow. Will replace that tomorrow after work. Took the fuel tank out and drained the the 6yr old fuel. Cleaned the tank and re-fueled with fresh fuel. Added 2 stroke oil mixture to the fuel (50:1).

The only thing I can see is to try and kick her over.

Before I do......did I miss something OR should I do something else before turning that key????

My mate wants to buy the boat but wants to see the outboard running first.

Thanks for the help in advance guys....

Cheers

Dave

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26 minutes ago, Sigma said:

Hello Raiders,

I have a question for the outboard experts.

I have another boat that I have had in storage at my in laws for the past 6yrs.

This was my first boat that I purchased about 10yrs ago and she's an old 4.6mtr Ally Craft (I think 80's model) with a 50Hp Johnson 2 stroke.

I started to do her up an spent quite a bit on her....new trailer (used only twice since purchase) , new custom bimini, new seats, new pedestals, new bait board, new steering cable set up, etc.....you get the gist.

Anyway, the time has come for me to move the boat due to the fact that the in laws have started to build a Granny Flat and its in the way now. As it won't be returning there anymore and as I have a newer larger boat that I use these days, I need to get rid of it. As its been sitting under a tree, it was quite run down. Last weekend, I spent two days cleaning her up and shes starting to look good again. 

To cut the long story short, my mate is really keen to buy her from me but I haven't started the engine in 6yrs. So, I bought new spark plugs, new leads and replaced the old ones. Also, I took the prop off...cleaned it, re-greased it and re-fitted. I drained the gear oil and replaced it with new oil. I have ordered a new primer bulb (as the old one you could use as a cricket ball :o) with hose and connectors which should be delivered tomorrow. Will replace that tomorrow after work. Took the fuel tank out and drained the the 6yr old fuel. Cleaned the tank and re-fueled with fresh fuel. Added 2 stroke oil mixture to the fuel (50:1).

The only thing I can see is to try and kick her over.

Before I do......did I miss something OR should I do something else before turning that key????

My mate wants to buy the boat but wants to see the outboard running first.

Thanks for the help in advance guys....

Cheers

Dave

You don't mention the carby,battery etc.I would take the Bowl/s off the Carburettor/s and drain them at a bare minimum and clean the fuel filter or replace and check all the lines etc.I would remove the plugs and squirt some pre-mix down the cylinders then turn her over by the flywheel or a quick burst of the pullstart or ignition switch with the safety off before firing her up for real.An impellor check/replacement wouldn't go a stray either.Im tired and can't think to clearly right now but these things I mentioned should help and of course make sure you have a good,charged battery.

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7 hours ago, Fab1 said:

You don't mention the carby,battery etc.I would take the Bowl/s off the Carburettor/s and drain them at a bare minimum and clean the fuel filter or replace and check all the lines etc.I would remove the plugs and squirt some pre-mix down the cylinders then turn her over by the flywheel or a quick burst of the pullstart or ignition switch with the safety off before firing her up for real.An impellor check/replacement wouldn't go a stray either.Im tired and can't think to clearly right now but these things I mentioned should help and of course make sure you have a good,charged battery.

Thanks Fab.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that she's a half cabin and therefore she doesn't have a pull start as she is ignition switch/key turn only. Battery is capult but I will be using my battery off my big boat to start her up. That battery is new and starts my 115Hp with ease (760cca). I told my mate what I will be doing to the boat as I don't want to spend any more money on her as she has cost me a fortune already. The battery and impeller will be his responsibility once she is up and running. After all, he is getting it at a bargain.

Edited by Sigma
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2 hours ago, rickmarlin62 said:

if you cant take carbies off.take out drain plugs on carbies and pump some fresh fuel thru once u put new line and bulb in..definetly spray small amount of fuel into cylinders to lubricate rings then turn over slowly...even tired your on the ball Fabian...rick

Thanks Rick,but I did forget to mention a few things.

13 minutes ago, Sigma said:

Thanks Fab.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that she's a half cabin and therefore she doesn't have a pull start as she is ignition switch/key turn only. Battery is capult but I will be using my battery off my big boat to start her up. That battery is new and starts my 115Hp with ease (760cca). I told my mate what I will be doing to the boat as I don't want to spend any more money on her as she has cost me a fortune already. The battery and impeller will be his responsibility once she is up and running. After all, he is getting it at a bargain.

No worries mate.I meant to mention last night to just go over the operation of all the controls.

Check that the helm is free to turn,the same with the gear selector (after it's running on the muffs),check the condition of the anodes,lights,wheel bearings etc.

Hope your mate enjoys her more than the tree did because if it say there much longer it would of grown it's own roots.

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Well guys, after receiving my primer bulb with hose and fittngs, I decided to connect it all up and give her a crank.

After pumping the bulb for a while, noticed that the bulb wasn't getting hard. Disconnected the connector at the engine and pumped again. This time, she got hard. Anyway, connected the fuel line connector to the engine again, pushed in the key and turned it (holding it in) aaaaaaand........nothing!! :ranting2:

She's turning over but won't start. After another 10 attempts and still not starting!!:ranting2::wife:

Tried it with choke on and choke off.....made no difference a all.

So, take off the cover on the carbies and noticed that the carbies were fairly dry. Take the spark plugs out as well and they're not much better....maybe a couple of drops on each plug. For some reason, she's not getting enough fuel. OK, thought that if I can get her to kick over somehow, she might pull some fuel through and get going. So, next plan was to get some pre-mixed fuel out of the tank and put it in a spray bottle and spray inside the carbies. Did that aaaaaand she kicks over only to die after 2-3secs....:ranting2:

Repeated this process about 6-7 times and had the same outcome every time. Decided then to spray in the carbies as well as inside the plug holes.......STILL THE SAME OUTCOME.....GRRRRRRRR :ranting2::chair::wife:  

Take the cover off the filter, looks fairly clean inside.

Then....I started getting other thoughts and ideas on how I could get rid of the problem, the boat and the petrol.....:angry: 

Where am I going wrong guys? :(:blush::1crybaby:

Edited by Sigma
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23 minutes ago, Sigma said:

Well guys, after receiving my primer bulb with hose and fittngs, I decided to connect it all up and give her a crank.

After pumping the bulb for a while, noticed that the bulb wasn't getting hard. Disconnected the connector at the engine and pumped again. This time, she got hard. Anyway, connected the fuel line connector to the engine again, pushed in the key and turned it (holding it in) aaaaaaand........nothing!! :ranting2:

She's turning over but won't start. After another 10 attempts and still not starting!!:ranting2::wife:

Tried it with choke on and choke off.....made no difference a all.

So, take off the cover on the carbies and noticed that the carbies were fairly dry. Take the spark plugs out as well and they're not much better....maybe a couple of drops on each plug. For some reason, she's not getting enough fuel. OK, thought that if I can get her to kick over somehow, she might pull some fuel through and get going. So, next plan was to get some pre-mixed fuel out of the tank and put it in a spray bottle and spray inside the carbies. Did that aaaaaand she kicks over only to die after 2-3secs....:ranting2:

Repeated this process about 6-7 times and had the same outcome every time. Decided then to spray in the carbies as well as inside the plug holes.......STILL THE SAME OUTCOME.....GRRRRRRRR :ranting2::chair::wife:  

Take the cover off the filter, looks fairly clean inside.

Then....I started getting other thoughts and ideas on how I could get rid of the problem, the boat and the petrol.....:angry: 

Where am I going wrong guys? :(:blush::1crybaby:

Sounds like a classic case of a stuck needle and seat.If your spraying pre-mix into the carburettor and its trying to start your not getting fuel into the carburettor.I would diagnosed it by a process of illimination.when you pump the primer bulb is fuel filling the fuel filter?if yes,then the problem lies between there and the carby.

Pump the primer bulb until hard and remove the carby fuel bowl drain screw with a rag held underneath to capture spillages.Fuel should come out.If not,remove the carby and pull the fuel bowl off to check that the fuel float is not stuck in the horizontal position.With no fuel in the bowl the float should be sunken into its housing meaning the fuel needle is lifted in its bore leaving it's seat passage open to allow fuel into the bowl.If the bowl is horizontal it means the needle and seat are closed which won't allow fuel into the fuel bowl.Sometimes lifting the float or pushing it down ever so gently will free the needle and seat up,other times it will need replacing.If you remove the bowl and there's debris in there you may have  clogged jets too.

Personally I would pull the carby off and give it a good clean at the minimum anyway as it's been sitting for a number of years.Again I'm tired and can't think too straight but if you have compression and spark you are missing fuel in the equation.Hope i made sense. 

 

 

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OK guys, just an update.

Took all of your advice on board and thought that I would try and work this out.

So, first I took the filter off and pulled it apart. Cleaned it with degreaser and dried it up. Then I took both carbies off and pulled the bottom balloons off. After So many attempts, expected to see some fuel in them but not even a drop....completely dry in both. :wacko:

I didn't want to pull the carbies apart as I had a suspicion that the carbies were  fine. So, I gave them a quick degrease and left them to dry. I then replaced all the fuel hoses from filter to carbies and from connector to filter as the originals looked old and worn. 

Put everything back together again and thought I would try again. 

Turn the key aaaaand.....EXACTLY the same as if I haven't even touched it!! Grrrrrrr.....:ranting2:   

So, here I am.....playing with my lighter and having silly thoughts. I'm getting barbequed in the heat and going nowhere.

So, I start again. Now, I'm going to check where the fuel is stopping and not getting through to the carbies.

First....Check that the primer bulb is getting hard....it is. Next, check that the connectors on the fuel line is working (even though its brand new).....they're working. Next, open the fuel filter and check if there is fuel in it.....

BINGO!!!  There is hardly any fuel in it at all. So, the only problem could be the connector on the outboard for the fuel line. Problem is now I have to take out the starter motor to get to the screw that is holding the connector. Oh well, I have pulled half the motor apart by now might as well. Take out the starter, unscrew the connector. Try to blow through the connector.....very, very hard. Gt the degreaser out, scrub it around, get a high water pressure through and she starts to let water freely through. Dry it up and try to blow in it with my mouth....easy:1clap:

Put everything back together again, turn the key and she starts.....works perfectly.:1clap::icon_peace:

Now, I have another problem. There is no water coming out of the teltale....:1worthy: ....only a couple of drops.  :05:

Edited by Sigma
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Great work to get this far (also glad this is keeping you off the other literature!) .... no water at tell tale ---> ear muffs / impeller / thermostats / and if you have it on your motor -- poppet valve. 

Cheers

Zoran

Edited by zmk1962
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29 minutes ago, zmk1962 said:

Great work to get this far (also glad this is keeping you off the other literature!) .... no water at tell tale ---> ear muffs / impeller / thermostats / and if you have it on your motor -- poppet valve. 

Cheers

Zoran

Hahaha.....other literature.

You kill me.....:risata::074:

Ear muffs are ok....

Thermostat.....well it wasn't heating up after 10-15mins of operation.

Whats a poppet valve ? Motor is probably mid 80's....did they have this poppet valve then?

Something tells me its the impeller.....hasn't been changed n 8yrs although never used for the past 6yrs.....might be cooked from the heat sitting and not getting started?

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33 minutes ago, Sigma said:

Hahaha.....other literature.

You kill me.....:risata::074:

Ear muffs are ok....

Thermostat.....well it wasn't heating up after 10-15mins of operation.

Whats a poppet valve ? Motor is probably mid 80's....did they have this poppet valve then?

Something tells me its the impeller.....hasn't been changed n 8yrs although never used for the past 6yrs.....might be cooked from the heat sitting and not getting started?

Good work mate.Impellors develop a set(Memory)when not used and the impellor vanes(Fins)will no longer be supple and pliable as they once where with a snug fit in its housing.

I bump the starter on my motor over with the lanyard removed every week to avoid this when it's not in use.It turns the impellor and stops in a new spot.

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6 minutes ago, Fab1 said:

Good work mate.Impellors develop a set(Memory)when not used and the impellor vanes(Fins)will no longer be supple and pliable as they once where with a snug fit in its housing.

I bump the starter on my motor over with the lanyard removed every week to avoid this when it's not in use.It turns the impellor and stops in a new spot.

Looks like another learning kerb for me Fab.....never done an impeller before.

I'm good with tools and all, but first time that I will try and replace an impeller....kind of exciting but worried at the same time if you know what I mean.

Oh, btw....... thanks for the PM. .. found it very helpful. 

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1 hour ago, Sigma said:

Looks like another learning kerb for me Fab.....never done an impeller before.

I'm good with tools and all, but first time that I will try and replace an impeller....kind of exciting but worried at the same time if you know what I mean.

Oh, btw....... thanks for the PM. .. found it very helpful. 

 

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38 minutes ago, Sigma said:

Where's the rest Fab....this only has a starting point?

Is there other parts to it? I will do a search and see if there is more.

It's a 10 part series starting from page 4 in the workshop.Hope it gives you some confidence.It basically is a half hour job with experience.

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Just back online for a second... poppet valve on my Merc controls the quantity of water flow through the head... if it has failed open then you may be losing fluid back through leg and hence so no or very weak tell tale. 

But as I said earlier.... trace order is  - Impeller - thermostats first.   

And given @Fab1 previous meticulous write ups follow the procedure he outlines re impellers.

Cheers

Zoran

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poppet valves generally jam in shut position with corrosion holding them..mine was jammed the other day..after long run high revs for half hr or more when I stopped and idled my buzzer would chirp..plenty water at telltale but not enough flowing thru head..cleaned it repositioned with smear of grease and no more probs..rick

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4 hours ago, rickmarlin62 said:

poppet valves generally jam in shut position with corrosion holding them..mine was jammed the other day..after long run high revs for half hr or more when I stopped and idled my buzzer would chirp..plenty water at telltale but not enough flowing thru head..cleaned it repositioned with smear of grease and no more probs..rick

Thanks @rickmarlin62...Yup agree..  I had a different manifestation though. My engine temperature would jump up and keep rising between 2000-3000rpm....just in trolling speed range, 4 -8kts zones rpm range ... a real pain in the butt having the engine getting hot in that rev range.

The engine temp was fine at idle up to 2000rpm and fine 3000-wot. My poppet valve spring had failed and was dumping the cooling water from the head with the increased water pressure driven by the impeller above 2000rpm.  Not an issue above 3000rpm as there was heaps of water going thru for cooling, not an issue below 2000rpm as the spring could hold that level of pressure ..... but between 2000-3000 she was a bitch.  Chalked that one up to experience for future reference....and I watch my gauges all the time.

Hence my suggestion to Sigma  if poppet had failed open it could be a source of little no water pressure in the head ... little/no tell tale. But thats what I would look at after checking ---> ear muffs / impeller / thermostats / and if you have it on your motor -- poppet valve.  

The reason I say thermostats is because some motors also only show a tell tale after the thermo's have opened up.  Not sure what Sigma's specific 80's model Johnno does. 

Cheers

Zoran

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Hey Zoran,

Just went outside to have a look and see if I can take out the thermostat.....lol, I can't even find it.

Looked all over the motor and can't see any kind of housing for a thermostat. 

Just worked out by the coding (thanks to Antony Wardle :thumbup:)  that its an 1981 Johnson 50Hp electric start.

Edited by Sigma
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Great. That’s what Fishraider’s do - help each other !!

Sigma try googling for parts for your specific 1981 johnno Model  number coding. Several sites that sell parts will throw up exploded view schematics of the motor so you can order the correct part. I often use that info  to locate a part and to see how it’s assembled.

Cheers

Zoran

Edited by zmk1962
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