Bream won't take the hooks on surface lures

[Aardvarking]

With the purchase of my lightest rod yet (1.5-4lb) combo'd with a stradic 1000 with 2lb crystal fireline meaning my ultra-ultra light setup is finally complete, I thought it would be good to have my first crack at surface luring for bream. I have had some great success so far with my lucky craft sammy 65, bassday sugapen 70f, berkley pop dog 65mm and atomic k9 pup (tragically lost to a pylon on Sunday, RIP).

The problem I have had is that although every bream in sydney seems to want to have a crack at my lures, every single one seems to miss the hooks. I've had schools of about 8 or 9 bream following my lure and having a go at it one by one, and not one gets hooked. It's not even that the bream are too small to take the hooks, there have been some monster bream have 4 consecutive hits of a popper without taking the hooks. I know hookup ratios are generally lower with surface lures, but it's pretty frustrating to get a hookup in every 10 or so hits.

Is there anything I could do to improve that? I have tried adding more pauses which didn't work, I tried having a less erratic action which only reduced the amount of interest in the lure and again didn't work. 

[blaxland]

I reckon your doing great but I would of thought one of those trebles to have stuck.

[Regan]

you could put a scent on the lure eg. sfactor

[Jewhunter]

Try adding an extra split ring between the hooks & lure to get them to sit a bit further back & swing a bit more than they do with standard trebles. It's an old school method, but it works well.

Also, are you pausing the lure for long enough? Once a bream is interested, a pause usually see's them hit the lure, as they really don't like it moving too much for them the strike. That's in calm water though. In really windy conditions with plenty of chop, keep it moving.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Jewhunter

[big Neil]

1 hour ago, Aardvarking said:

With the purchase of my lightest rod yet (1.5-4lb) combo'd with a stradic 1000 with 2lb crystal fireline meaning my ultra-ultra light setup is finally complete, I thought it would be good to have my first crack at surface luring for bream. I have had some great success so far with my lucky craft sammy 65, bassday sugapen 70f, berkley pop dog 65mm and atomic k9 pup (tragically lost to a pylon on Sunday, RIP).

The problem I have had is that although every bream in sydney seems to want to have a crack at my lures, every single one seems to miss the hooks. I've had schools of about 8 or 9 bream following my lure and having a go at it one by one, and not one gets hooked. It's not even that the bream are too small to take the hooks, there have been some monster bream have 4 consecutive hits of a popper without taking the hooks. I know hookup ratios are generally lower with surface lures, but it's pretty frustrating to get a hookup in every 10 or so hits.

Is there anything I could do to improve that? I have tried adding more pauses which didn't work, I tried having a less erratic action which only reduced the amount of interest in the lure and again didn't work. 

As suggested scent may help, the split ring should help and I can only add this. Vary the retrieve...faster, slower, pauses (short /long), and try NOT to strike TOO QUICKLY. This can often pull the lure away from a hookup. You've got all the right gear so it must only be the technique that's subject to further examination. Good luck bn

[Aardvarking]

I might try the scent thing and the extra split rings, thanks for that. I use scent on blades, vibes and plastics but for some reason I never used them on topwater. My pauses are definitely long enough. My dad always taught me to wait until all the ripples have fully dissipated between pops with a popper, so I've applied the same thing to a dog walker.

Just another thing, I can't get over how annoying taylor are. On sunday I had spent about 15 minutes sight casting one of the biggest bream I've ever seen with my Sammy 65, and after about fifteen casts he finally looks like he's interested. He gets up behind the lure, stars slowly moving in closer and is just about to strike when the world's smallest tailor jumps in and eats a lure bigger than himself, spooking the bream and ruining my chances of beating my 47cm bream pb. What a useless fish

[TurtleTown]

Try replacing the rear treble with assist hooks, I’ve heard the atomic ones are good. Helps with hookups and easier to remove as well.

[MainframeJames]

+1 on assist hooks. Extra split ring would have a similar effect. Scent also a great suggestion as they may hold on just a tad longer. 

I know it doesn't exactly solve the problem, but if you're interesting lots of bream and just not hooking up try throwing an SP into the middle of them. Sometimes the different texture/mouth feel is enough to get them to really commit. 

Also bear in mind that by-catch can include bigger Tailor and Flathead. 2lb is very light and not very forgiving if there's any wear on the line. Even with a good leader your chances of busting off are higher. 

[Volitan]

thinking about this from the basics.

when a bream tried to take a popper it’s acting as a ‘ram and suction’ feeder. Not it’s normal feeding mode and not something it’s very good at.

basically, it opens its mouth and lunges at the popper, but the popper is pushed aside by the bow wave created in front of the fish. Every time.

You can see what is happening if you put some small, floaty objects in a bathtub of water and try to catch them in a cup. Every time you try to catch them in the cup they are simply pushed aside. The water already in the cup and the bow wave in front of the cup prevent entry. Think of the bream with a wide open mouth as a cup.

its the same with the surface lure. The problem is made worse because the lures are so lightweight and easily moved by the bow wave. A small fish is a bit different - they are dense and comparatively heavy, plus they are streamlined and slippery so the bow wave tends to rush past them leaving them behind, so the fish get to swallow them.

im pretty sure that’s what is happening. I used to fish for rat kings on fly-poppers a lot and because everything was larger and closer you could see it happening. 

solution. Well, a denser, heavier lure will be easier for the fish to get into its mouth. A stinger hook will trail behind the lure and be more available to the fish. Generally, it’s just an inherent problem with lightweight surface lures.

if it makes you feel any better, the bream is probably just as confused and frustrated as you - baffled by the fact that it just can’t grab this strange looking fish.

[TurtleTown]

1 hour ago, Volitan said:

thinking about this from the basics.

basically, it opens its mouth and lunges at the popper, but the popper is pushed aside by the bow wave created in front of the fish. Every time.

You can see what is happening if you put some small, floaty objects in a bathtub of water and try to catch them in a cup. Every time you try to catch them in the cup they are simply pushed aside. The water already in the cup and the bow wave in front of the cup prevent entry. Think of the bream with a wide open mouth as a cup.

its the same with the surface lure. The problem is made worse because the lures are so lightweight and easily moved by the bow wave. 

That’s a very detailed and informative post, had never thought about it like that but it makes perfect sense. I like your thinking Volitan 

[Aardvarking]

Sounds like assist hooks are the go. One of my favourite youtube fishos (Sand Flat Fishing Australia) swears by them, and after hearing all this I'll be sure to grab some. Does anyone have any recommendations for the best assist hook brand for bream lures?

Edited March 20, 2018 by Aardvarking

[TurtleTown]

That Sand flats guy  recamends Atomic brand, most probably others just as good. Will be interested hearing how you go with them 

[Pafisho08]

HI

Atomic assist size 10 are the go 

On line from most tackle shops or try your favourite  one . 

Bob 

[Short]

4 hours ago, Volitan said:

thinking about this from the basics.

when a bream tried to take a popper it’s acting as a ‘ram and suction’ feeder. Not it’s normal feeding mode and not something it’s very good at.

basically, it opens its mouth and lunges at the popper, but the popper is pushed aside by the bow wave created in front of the fish. Every time.

You can see what is happening if you put some small, floaty objects in a bathtub of water and try to catch them in a cup. Every time you try to catch them in the cup they are simply pushed aside. The water already in the cup and the bow wave in front of the cup prevent entry. Think of the bream with a wide open mouth as a cup.

its the same with the surface lure. The problem is made worse because the lures are so lightweight and easily moved by the bow wave. A small fish is a bit different - they are dense and comparatively heavy, plus they are streamlined and slippery so the bow wave tends to rush past them leaving them behind, so the fish get to swallow them.

im pretty sure that’s what is happening. I used to fish for rat kings on fly-poppers a lot and because everything was larger and closer you could see it happening. 

solution. Well, a denser, heavier lure will be easier for the fish to get into its mouth. A stinger hook will trail behind the lure and be more available to the fish. Generally, it’s just an inherent problem with lightweight surface lures.

if it makes you feel any better, the bream is probably just as confused and frustrated as you - baffled by the fact that it just can’t grab this strange looking fish.

When fish strike they flare their whole mouth structure and create suction in to their gob. This will pull bait in to the mouth not push it away. Cup in a bath has no suction and a closed base that will push objects away when driven towards them. 

Maybe the bream can see your shiny trebles and are going straight for the body of the lure?

[brett01]

Try longer casts, they are a finicky fish usually see you before you see them (just coz they don't swim away doesn't mean they are unaware of you)  if you draw them out into the open and you can see them, they are sometimes too wary.

I Had similar happen with some donkeys recently going for a 100mm bent minnow thrown for trevs, they followed and kissed it a few casts, can be frustrating haha

[dirvin21]

5 hours ago, brett01 said:

Try longer casts, they are a finicky fish usually see you before you see them (just coz they don't swim away doesn't mean they are unaware of you)  if you draw them out into the open and you can see them, they are sometimes too wary.

I Had similar happen with some donkeys recently going for a 100mm bent minnow thrown for trevs, they followed and kissed it a few casts, can be frustrating haha

x2 especially landbased they seem to kiss the lure it gets seriously frustrating, try and stand back from the edge as far as you can

[MainframeJames]

The nice thing about the Atomics is they're cheaper than any others I've seen. Of course, if you're willing to tie them yourself you can definitely do better. 

[Green Hornet]

I've found most of the assist hooks you can buy are very brittle and quite prone to snapping, especially close to the point which can be really frustrating if you don't notice until you've missed a heap of strikes.

I prefer to tie my own using size 8 or 6 Daiichi 2171-B hooks (commonly used for blackfish) and 40 or 50 pound braid. For the dangly bits you can use rubber bands, old spinnerbait bodies or anything you can find in a craft shop.

[Aardvarking]

26 minutes ago, Green Hornet said:

I've found most of the assist hooks you can buy are very brittle and quite prone to snapping, especially close to the point which can be really frustrating if you don't notice until you've missed a heap of strikes.

I prefer to tie my own using size 8 or 6 Daiichi 2171-B hooks (commonly used for blackfish) and 40 or 50 pound braid. For the dangly bits you can use rubber bands, old spinnerbait bodies or anything you can find in a craft shop.

I might give that a shot. I have a pack of owner size 8 SSW hooks which I bought because they were 90% off and haven't really known what to do with them. I also have some left over 30lb J-braid which I'm sure will do the job fine.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Aardvarking

[Green Hornet]

1 hour ago, Aardvarking said:

I might give that a shot. I have a pack of owner size 8 SSW hooks which I bought because they were 90% off and haven't really known what to do with them. I also have some left over 30lb J-braid which I'm sure will do the job fine.

Yeah, give it a try.

I'm sure the J-braid will be fine. The braid I use is 8 weave, so its quite thin for its breaking strain.

[Berleyguts]

I watched a fishing show on TV this morning, Hook, Line and Sinker. They were catching 40cm+ Black bream in Tassie on hardbodies. They kept saying, “Fish it slow, then slow it down again”.

[Aardvarking]

I've been trying my best to tie the stinger hooks on, but I can't seem to get the stingers quite short enough. Is there any knot I can tie where I can completely choose the length of the line during or after the knot is tied?

[Jewhunter]

Snell them

[MainframeJames]

41 minutes ago, Jewhunter said:

Snell them

This. I’ll also PM you a link to a page I found helpful. 

[Aardvarking]

Some rigged lures ready to go. So far I've just tied them on pretty simply, but when I get the time I might go for a more permanent solution and add some flair. I'll do an update when I've tried them out to see how my hook up ratio goes.