Flathead on light leader

[nutsaboutfishing]

I've fishing for bream for about 9 months now with SP. And often a the by catch is flathead. If there're lip hooked I have no trouble getting them in, but often I'll hook a fish and after a fight my leader breaks and I lose lure and fish. When I exam the leader it's usually frayed. So I'm guessing a flathead that has swallowed the lure and the leader is on direct contact with the flathead teeth. I usually loose them pretty close to the end of the fight probably coz all the headshakes cut through the leader

Does anyone have any tips as to how to play the fish so I can land more?? Do you not wind them in and let them tire themselves out but that increases the chances of rock and stuff cutting your line anyhow? It seems a less taught line would fray less, so do you fish with the drag dialled right back??

Any help would be appreciated.

cheers

 

Richard

[Berleyguts]

Flathead generally don’t bite through line. It is the sawing motion resulting from the tail moving the head from side to side that wears through the line. Generally, if you can keep the head down in the fight, you can minimise the risk. Don’t let it get its head up on the surface when bringing it to the net... take the net down deeper and bring it up under it. Also, check your leader for wear after every fish and replace/trim as necessary. Vanish fluorocarbon is pretty hard wearing.  think it’s best to keep the the line taut, myself. A member of my ANSA club and fellow Raider, @campr, specialises in chasing big flathead on very light line (1kg) and although he’d use a shock leader, Ron might chime in with some tips.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Berleyguts

[nutsaboutfishing]

23 minutes ago, Berleyguts said:

Flathead generally don’t bite through line. It is the sawing motion resulting from the tail moving the head from side to side that wears through the line. Generally, if you can keep the head down in the fight, you can minimise the risk. Don’t let it get its head up on the surface when bringing it to the net... take the net down deeper and bring it up under it. Also, check your leader for wear after every fish and replace/trim as necessary. Vanish fluorocarbon is pretty hard wearing.  think it’s best to keep the the line taut, myself. A member of my ANSA club and fellow Raider, @campr, specialises in chasing big flathead on very light line (1kg) and although he’d use a shock leader, Ron might chime in with some tips.

Thanks Berleyguts,

                                   I should have been a bit more specific. I usually lose them even before I see them, so they're not at the surface yet

[dirvin21]

first of all if you suspect you've hooked a flathead back off your drag so the fish can run yes you risk hitting a rock but flathead don't generally bury you intentionally....... all the time I see people afraid to let a fish run in open water especially flathead

next mistake is they go to hard... take your time the aim is to tire the fish, slow gentle lifts and winds eventually you'll start anticipating the fish lungeing and you'll be able to drop the rod a bit to absorb the force  

don't let it's head break the water once their head is on the surface thye start shaking and thus is when leaders really shred 

hope this helps

Dave 

 

[Berleyguts]

4 hours ago, nutsaboutfishing said:

Thanks Berleyguts,

                                   I should have been a bit more specific. I usually lose them even before I see them, so they're not at the surface yet

I think that’s odd for lure fishing. For bait fishing, I could understand it as a flathead might sit on the bait for a while but it should hit a lure and you’d know straight away. What type and size leader are you using?

[Aardvarking]

What everyone has said about not lifting flatheads head's is right. When I'm fishing landbased I'll use around an 8lb fluoro leader (around 2.2-2.3mm is my preference). This is because Instead of pulling the fish up, I can use my rod to lead the fish towards me, which prevents pulling the fish up and making it go crazy shaking it's head, plus it puts less pressure on the line. However, when I'm fishing from a boat or kayak I'll go up to a leader around 0.28-0.3mm. This is because I have to lift the fish all the way up to the boat, which puts more stress on the line and gives flathead more incentive and opportunities to shake their head and fray my leader.

[nutsaboutfishing]

3 hours ago, Berleyguts said:

I think that’s odd for lure fishing. For bait fishing, I could understand it as a flathead might sit on the bait for a while but it should hit a lure and you’d know straight away. What type and size leader are you using?

I'm using 6lb leader and 1/16 jighead

[nutsaboutfishing]

5 hours ago, dirvin21 said:

first of all if you suspect you've hooked a flathead back off your drag so the fish can run yes you risk hitting a rock but flathead don't generally bury you intentionally....... all the time I see people afraid to let a fish run in open water especially flathead

next mistake is they go to hard... take your time the aim is to tire the fish, slow gentle lifts and winds eventually you'll start anticipating the fish lungeing and you'll be able to drop the rod a bit to absorb the force  

don't let it's head break the water once their head is on the surface thye start shaking and thus is when leaders really shred 

hope this helps

Dave 

 

Thanks Dave, it helps heaps mate!!

[Berleyguts]

2 hours ago, nutsaboutfishing said:

I'm using 6lb leader and 1/16 jighead

6lb is doable but if you think it won’t affect your bream strike rate too much, why not try 8 or 10lb? 12 would be as high as I’d go. That should be plenty. Vanish is a tough wearing fluorocarbon.

[nutsaboutfishing]

5 hours ago, Berleyguts said:

6lb is doable but if you think it won’t affect your bream strike rate too much, why not try 8 or 10lb? 12 would be as high as I’d go. That should be plenty. Vanish is a tough wearing fluorocarbon.

That's probably a good idea, thanks. It's always said fish as light as you can, but  I just  checked the the Berkley site the diameter difference between 6 and 10lb Vanish is only  1/2 mm.  I've often wondered can a fish see such a small difference in diameter

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by nutsaboutfishing

[Berleyguts]

40 minutes ago, nutsaboutfishing said:

That's probably a good idea, thanks. It's always said fish as light as you can, but  I just  checked the the Berkley site the diameter difference between 6 and 10lb Vanish is only  1/2 mm.  I've often wondered can a fish see such a small difference in diameter

 

Not 1/2 mm actually. 5/100ths of a mm.... 0.05mm. Negligible. Give it a go. ? I fish quite light line, in ANSA line classes, so usually use mono for my mainline. When I use braid, I use a short length of pretest mono as a breakaway line but I always use a shock leader of fluorocarbon. The strength to diameter rating of Vanish is pretty good.

[FishermanSteve]

I had a problem like that I actually stepped up to 20lb fluorocarbon and hasn't effected the amount of bites but increased the amount of fish landed. My mainline is only 8lb and that's more than strong enough if you play them right

[Berleyguts]

6 hours ago, FishermanSteve said:

I had a problem like that I actually stepped up to 20lb fluorocarbon and hasn't effected the amount of bites but increased the amount of fish landed. My mainline is only 8lb and that's more than strong enough if you play them right

Yes, Steve. I use 20lb flouro a fair bit too. I don’t target bream much, though. Do you find it fine to use when targeting bream, with no drop in strike rate?

[nutsaboutfishing]

11 hours ago, Berleyguts said:

Not 1/2 mm actually. 5/100ths of a mm.... 0.05mm. Negligible. Give it a go. ? I fish quite light line, in ANSA line classes, so usually use mono for my mainline. When I use braid, I use a short length of pretest mono as a breakaway line but I always use a shock leader of fluorocarbon. The strength to diameter rating of Vanish is pretty good.

Your quite right!! I've been out of school too long. 

[undy]

12 hours ago, Berleyguts said:

Not 1/2 mm actually. 5/100ths of a mm.... 0.05mm. Negligible. Give it a go. ? I fish quite light line, in ANSA line classes, so usually use mono for my mainline. When I use braid, I use a short length of pretest mono as a breakaway line but I always use a shock leader of fluorocarbon. The strength to diameter rating of Vanish is pretty good.

Hi Berleyguts, Can you explain a bit more? What do you mean by a breakaway line? Do you have braid mainline then mono them fluoro?

[Berleyguts]

22 minutes ago, undy said:

Hi Berleyguts, Can you explain a bit more? What do you mean by a breakaway line? Do you have braid mainline then mono them fluoro?

Yeah, sure. I fish ANSA & IGFA line classes, so my line, when tested when lodging a claim, must break at or below the entered line class. Braid generally breaks well above the stated breaking strain, so if I’m fishing 4kg class, I might use, say, 20lb braid mainline, then a minimum of 500mm length of pretest 4kg mono, then a shock leader of fluorocarbon. I use double uni knots to join the line but I have started trying to master the FJ knot. This way you get the benefits of braid with the guaranteed line class eligibility of pretest mono. In sportfishing divisions, you are allowed a maximum combined double/leader length (top knot to end of last hook in lure) of 1.5 times the rod length (measured from reel set). On my game rods, I use pretest mono for trolling, plaited double to a wind on leader. In gamefishing divisions, maximum combined double/leader length is 20ft up to 10kg class and 40ft 15kg and up. Hope this helps.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Berleyguts

[undy]

That's really interesting. Is it legal to double up the line eg. using a bimini twist?

[Berleyguts]

2 hours ago, undy said:

That's really interesting. Is it legal to double up the line eg. using a bimini twist?

Yes, most definitely. I usually plait my doubles. As long as you are within the  maximum allowable length dimensions, you are good.

[nutsaboutfishing]

18 hours ago, Berleyguts said:

Not 1/2 mm actually. 5/100ths of a mm.... 0.05mm. Negligible. Give it a go. ? I fish quite light line, in ANSA line classes, so usually use mono for my mainline. When I use braid, I use a short length of pretest mono as a breakaway line but I always use a shock leader of fluorocarbon. The strength to diameter rating of Vanish is pretty good.

Hey BG,

              What's idea of mono as a breakaway line between your braid and fluro. Is it meant to break if you get snagged and mean you lose less fluro leader?

              sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

Richard

[bluefin]

I fish almost exclusively for Flathead on lures. I use 4 lb leader With about 30 c/m  of 12 lb tied as a bite trace on the end.  I use 4 or 6 lb leader to cast further. It probably reduces the bream by catch, but the Jew by catch is covered !!!  I was fishing with the local Guide last week, and he uses 8 lb leader with no problems. We caught over 12 flathead that day without loosing any to bite offs.  We were using 1 to 3 and 2 to 4 kg rods with a firm drag. Not too tight so the fish could run a bit !   Howard.

[FishermanSteve]

13 hours ago, Berleyguts said:

Yes, Steve. I use 20lb flouro a fair bit too. I don’t target bream much, though. Do you find it fine to use when targeting bream, with no drop in strike rate?

It's fine when targeting bream, at my usual spot I can't stop getting bites from them using 20lb fluorocarbon. Their grinding little teeth will wear through anything less after about 5 bream I've found 

[Berleyguts]

2 hours ago, nutsaboutfishing said:

Hey BG,

              What's idea of mono as a breakaway line between your braid and fluro. Is it meant to break if you get snagged and mean you lose less fluro leader?

              sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

Richard

No such thing as a dumb question! I just don’t want to hijack your thread!

In ANSA competition, the biggest fish doesn’t necessarily win. The line class you are fishing also comes into it. So, a 6kg fish on 10kg line could be beaten by, say, a 3kg fish on 2kg line. Each species has a fighting factor based on its assessed “fighting ability”. For example, flathead have a factor of 1. Bream 1.2 (I think), marlin 1.2, bass/kings/tuna/bonito 1.5, broadbill 2. Carp are 0.5. The score for each fish is calculated as follows:

(weight x fighting factor x 100)/line class = points

So a 3kg flathead on 2kg line would score 150 points: (3 x 1 x 100)/2 = 150.

A 6kg kingfish on 10kg line would score only 90 points: (6 x 1.5 x 100)/10 = 90.

If the two fish were entered in the same division (say, Sportfishing in Estaries or Lakes), the 3kg flathead would win over the 6kg kingfish.

When submitting an entry, the line may be tested (for a record claim, a sample MUST be submitted for testing), so we have to be sure that our line used breaks at or below the line class we are fishing. If it breaks above, it’s classed as being in the next line class, e.g. if 2kg line breaks at 2.2, it’s classed as 3kg line class, if 10kg line breaks at 10.1, it jumps to 15kg line class. To safeguard against this we buy signature or pretest line (I use Platypus Pretest), which is tested and declared to break at a defined breaking point. This is for mono... there is not much pretest braid about and it can be expensive. To cater for the advancement in technology and increased use of braid/gelspun lines, ANSA introduces the allowed use of a short length (minimum 500mm) of breakaway line. This breakaway line would be pretest mono, so although you’re using braid for the benefits of sensitivity etc., you still have a weak link of breakaway that will break at or under your nominated line class. Does that make sense?

 

[undy]

1 hour ago, Berleyguts said:

No such thing as a dumb question! I just don’t want to hijack your thread!

In ANSA competition, the biggest fish doesn’t necessarily win. The line class you are fishing also comes into it. So, a 6kg fish on 10kg line could be beaten by, say, a 3kg fish on 2kg line. Each species has a fighting factor based on its assessed “fighting ability”. For example, flathead have a factor of 1. Bream 1.2 (I think), marlin 1.2, bass/kings/tuna/bonito 1.5, broadbill 2. Carp are 0.5. The score for each fish is calculated as follows:

(weight x fighting factor x 100)/line class = points

So a 3kg flathead on 2kg line would score 150 points: (3 x 1 x 100)/2 = 150.

A 6kg kingfish on 10kg line would score only 90 points: (6 x 1.5 x 100)/10 = 90.

If the two fish were entered in the same division (say, Sportfishing in Estaries or Lakes), the 3kg flathead would win over the 6kg kingfish.

When submitting an entry, the line may be tested (for a record claim, a sample MUST be submitted for testing), so we have to be sure that our line used breaks at or below the line class we are fishing. If it breaks above, it’s classed as being in the next line class, e.g. if 2kg line breaks at 2.2, it’s classed as 3kg line class, if 10kg line breaks at 10.1, it jumps to 15kg line class. To safeguard against this we buy signature or pretest line (I use Platypus Pretest), which is tested and declared to break at a defined breaking point. This is for mono... there is not much pretest braid about and it can be expensive. To cater for the advancement in technology and increased use of braid/gelspun lines, ANSA introduces the allowed use of a short length (minimum 500mm) of breakaway line. This breakaway line would be pretest mono, so although you’re using braid for the benefits of sensitivity etc., you still have a weak link of breakaway that will break at or under your nominated line class. Does that make sense?

 

So is your line class ultimately determined by the lowest breaking piece of line in the rig?

So you could have 25kg braid mainline + 5kg pretest mono breakaway + 20kg fluorocarbon shock leader, and this would be considered 5kg line class?

[Berleyguts]

51 minutes ago, undy said:

So is your line class ultimately determined by the lowest breaking piece of line in the rig?

So you could have 25kg braid mainline + 5kg pretest mono breakaway + 20kg fluorocarbon shock leader, and this would be considered 5kg line class?

Yes because the theory is that the 5kg pretest mono would break before the mainline, although I think the wide variation in your example is a bit extreme. For instance, I generally fish 20lb braid with a 4 or 6kg breakaway or 10lb braid with a 2 or 3kg breakaway. Sorry about the mix of imperial and metric but that’s the way braid is rated and sportfishing in Australia uses metric line classes. You wouldn’t use a 5kg breakaway but 4 or 6. The eligible line classes in kg are: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 15, 24, 37 and I don’t even remember what the metric equivalent of the old 130lb line class is! I don’t fish above 15kg class anyway. It was a lot simpler when it was just pretest mono but braid has its advantages in certain situations, so hence the breakaway lines!

I love the ANSA system (Australian National Sportfishing Association) and, for me, it is not so much about winning state or national competitions but about achieving PBs and “Masters” fish. A Masters fish is one scoring 100 points or more. 10 Masters species in a division earns you the title of “Master Angler”. There are many divisions (Sportfishing, Gamefishing, LBG, Lurecasting, Flyfishing, Handline, Tag & Release etc.) and then you can go for 250 Masters and more, e.g. 10:1 captures. These are weight based. There is also the Length Only division where line class doesn’t matter and I think this also encourages careful release of fish by just measuring them and not weighing them. There are set lengths for each species that are considered trophy length so if you catch a fish at or above that length, it’s a Length Only Masters fish. For me, the ANSA concept is so much better than the old concept of fishing competitions that resulted in big bags of dead fish being weighed in each weekend.

But it’s all a personal thing. If ANSA sounds like it might suit you, why not check out a local club?

[nutsaboutfishing]

16 hours ago, Berleyguts said:

No such thing as a dumb question! I just don’t want to hijack your thread!

In ANSA competition, the biggest fish doesn’t necessarily win. The line class you are fishing also comes into it. So, a 6kg fish on 10kg line could be beaten by, say, a 3kg fish on 2kg line. Each species has a fighting factor based on its assessed “fighting ability”. For example, flathead have a factor of 1. Bream 1.2 (I think), marlin 1.2, bass/kings/tuna/bonito 1.5, broadbill 2. Carp are 0.5. The score for each fish is calculated as follows:

(weight x fighting factor x 100)/line class = points

So a 3kg flathead on 2kg line would score 150 points: (3 x 1 x 100)/2 = 150.

A 6kg kingfish on 10kg line would score only 90 points: (6 x 1.5 x 100)/10 = 90.

If the two fish were entered in the same division (say, Sportfishing in Estaries or Lakes), the 3kg flathead would win over the 6kg kingfish.

When submitting an entry, the line may be tested (for a record claim, a sample MUST be submitted for testing), so we have to be sure that our line used breaks at or below the line class we are fishing. If it breaks above, it’s classed as being in the next line class, e.g. if 2kg line breaks at 2.2, it’s classed as 3kg line class, if 10kg line breaks at 10.1, it jumps to 15kg line class. To safeguard against this we buy signature or pretest line (I use Platypus Pretest), which is tested and declared to break at a defined breaking point. This is for mono... there is not much pretest braid about and it can be expensive. To cater for the advancement in technology and increased use of braid/gelspun lines, ANSA introduces the allowed use of a short length (minimum 500mm) of breakaway line. This breakaway line would be pretest mono, so although you’re using braid for the benefits of sensitivity etc., you still have a weak link of breakaway that will break at or under your nominated line class. Does that make sense?

 

I see make perfect sense, so you use fluro coz of the invisibilty, but pretest mono for the comp rules.  And you most definitely haven't hijacked by post, but have taught me something AND solved my problem with the breaking line, I'm going to up my leader to 10 lb coz what's 5/100 of a mm between friends and fish!!