Fab1 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Well,i went out fishing last night to find my outboard not running the best.I started her up at the ramp as usual warming her up on the fast idle lever. I,d just dropped the fast idle lever down,thrown the bow line to my son on the beach as he gave me a good shove off the shore when the motor stalled. I tried to start her while i slowly drifted away with him and the mrs looking on until finally i got her started and motored to the pontoon to pick them up. She hesitated a little and was smokey a little but settled down on our way out from grays point to our fishing destination in Yowie bay. We got there and anchored up to fish,when roughly an hr later when we up anchored she started then stalled within seconds running rough as guts. Again i tried starting her with/without choke,fast idle lever,priming bulb and she finally started and ran like crap missing and bucking at slow speeds and once up at around 1/4 throttle purred like a kitten all the way up to full throttle. I tried slowing down several times to slow speeds and it will miss/hesitate,run rough. When i give it throttle it will hesitate,stumble for a few seconds then smooth out nicely and go all the way up to full throttle. Anyway,this morning i had a quick look checking fuel connections etc ,finding that with the engine off and priming the fuel bulb up rock hard keeping it squeezed it softens slowly underhand with no visible leaks on any fuel line,connectors,fuel pump etc. If my knowledge is correct,it means the fuel is being pumped into the carburretor bowl past the needle and seat (which should be sealing closed as the fuel bowl is full)and into the crankcase making the engine flood fouling the plugs as they are very wet. Im not giving up until i get to the bottom of this. Fishing wise there was plenty of action with some snapper just under legal still around and we manages one 38cm bream and a 43cm flounder my son caught on the bottom.With the dramas we had we released both fish to fight another day. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmk1962 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Sorry to hear @Fab1 ... I know how hard it is for you to align free time with fishing time. First run at it given what you describe.... seems an issue with the Carbie Float or needle. Could be a the float is stuck in the down position allowing fuel into the carbie fuel bowl, but then for some reason is not floating up to close the needle valve. Or its somehow not engaging the needle valve or the needle valve is not sealing properly. When was the last time you ran it? Did you run it dry? Cheers Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffb5.8 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Two things to try 1. When running squeeze the fuel bulb and if it stumbles more or stalls then it should be carby related as the fuel gets past. 2. How old are the plugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fab1 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 29 minutes ago, zmk1962 said: Sorry to hear @Fab1 ... I know how hard it is for you to align free time with fishing time. First run at it given what you describe.... seems an issue with the Carbie Float or needle. Could be a the float is stuck in the down position allowing fuel into the carbie fuel bowl, but then for some reason is not floating up to close the needle valve. Or its somehow not engaging the needle valve or the needle valve is not sealing properly. When was the last time you ran it? Did you run it dry? Cheers Z Im thinking along similar lines mate.I run it weekly no matter what and don't run it dry.The thing is with the engine off i prime the bulb up hard and it slowly softens and can pump it again.That,s telling me the needle is in the closed position but fuel is leaking past it into the crank case. Shouldn't the bulb get hard/firm and stay that way until the outboard is running? 4 minutes ago, jeffb5.8 said: Two things to try 1. When running squeeze the fuel bulb and if it stumbles more or stalls then it should be carby related as the fuel gets past. 2. How old are the plugs? Didn't think of that and will try. Plugs about 2 months old. This is their state. Very wet with a bit of carbon. Cheers guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankS Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Just my opinion but IF it's a oil injected 2 stroke ? I would be looking at disconnecting the injection and run pre mixed 50/1 and see what happens, looks like oil on that plug. If it's 4 stroke I don't know. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fab1 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 25 minutes ago, frankS said: Just my opinion but IF it's a oil injected 2 stroke ? I would be looking at disconnecting the injection and run pre mixed 50/1 and see what happens, looks like oil on that plug. If it's 4 stroke I don't know. Frank It's 2stroke,2cyl carby pre-mixed mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmk1962 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Fab1 said: Im thinking along similar lines mate.I run it weekly no matter what and don't run it dry.The thing is with the engine off i prime the bulb up hard and it slowly softens and can pump it again.That,s telling me the needle is in the closed position but fuel is leaking past it into the crank case. Shouldn't the bulb get hard/firm and stay that way until the outboard is running? 1 hour ago, jeffb5.8 said: Fabian from memory your running a Yammie 30hp 2st (I remember you were testing Penrite), and I think thats a pre mix set up. The plugs are definitely wet - which indicates you are running rich and points to the carbie. As I understand the fuel flow: the primer bulb has a non return valve so pushes fuel to the carbe. If the carbie float is down (carbie bowl empty), the needle valve is open and allows fuel into the carbie bowl. As the bowl fills up, the carbie float closes the needle (bit like a toilet cistern) - hence you feel the bulb go hard - needle valve is close. As the motor runs, it uses fuel from the carbie bowl, drops the float, opens the needle valve to suck more fuel in until the bowl is full and the float shuts of the valve. If this needle is stuck open your bulb will progressively go soft as the fuel keeps flowing into the carbie. You get flooded carbie - difficult start - wet plugs etc. It may kick over if the throttle is open, as that throttle setting requires more fuel in the mix anyway - but chances are will run rough and rich as the mix is not optimum. I had similar issues with my 15HP Mariner carbie model. Cheers Z Edited October 24, 2018 by zmk1962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fab1 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, zmk1962 said: Fabian from memory your running a Yammie 30hp 2st (I remember you were testing Penrite), and I think thats a pre mix set up. The plugs are definitely wet - which indicates you are running rich and points to the carbie. As I understand the fuel flow: the primer bulb has a non return valve so pushes fuel to the carbe. If the carbie float is down (carbie bowl empty), the needle valve is open and allows fuel into the carbie bowl. As the bowl fills up, the carbie float closes the needle (bit like a toilet cistern) - hence you feel the bulb go hard - needle valve is close. If this needle is stuck open your bulb will progressively go soft as the fuel keeps flowing into the carbie. You get flooded carbie - difficult start - wet plugs etc. It may kick over if the throttle is open, as that throttle setting requires more fuel in the mix anyway - but chances are will run rough and rich as the mix is not optimum. I had similar issues with my 15HP Mariner carbie model. Cheers Z Yes,thats what i think is happening. The needle isn't fully seating on seat letting fuel past.Looks like im up for a carby kit and yes im running the penrite 2 stroke (pre-mix)as my motor is pre-mix. The plugs are soaked in fuel/oil. Heres another shot. Im guessing a carb kit fixed yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmk1962 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 In my case no carbie kit, I just stripped the carbie, cleaned it with carbie cleaner, reassembled and checked to make sure the float was not sticking and in my case that the little tab that activated the needle was intact. Also, checked there was no damage to the needle valve or seat - as best as I could see. Motor started and ran great, but the problem kept reocurring every few months. In my case it was definitely that the carbie bowl was drying out inbetween uses and the float was sticking in the needle open position - probably due to the residual resins left behind by evaporating fuel (in your case fuel+oil). I changed my wash down procedure, and now let the carbie run dry and the problem has not resurfaced past 5yrs. So still no carbie kit !! Cheers Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fab1 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, zmk1962 said: In my case no carbie kit, I just stripped the carbie, cleaned it with carbie cleaner, reassembled and checked to make sure the float was not sticking and in my case that the little tab that activated the needle was intact. Also, checked there was no damage to the needle valve or seat - as best as I could see. Motor started and ran great, but the problem kept reocurring every few months. In my case it was definitely that the carbie bowl was drying out inbetween uses and the float was sticking in the needle open position - probably due to the residual resins left behind by evaporating fuel (in your case fuel+oil). I changed my wash down procedure, and now let the carbie run dry and the problem has not resurfaced past 5yrs. So still no carbie kit !! Cheers Z I understand what your saying but i doubt the fuel will evaporate in a week.I may be wrong but ill have a look on friday when im off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmk1962 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, Fab1 said: I understand what your saying but i doubt the fuel will evaporate in a week.I may be wrong but ill have a look on friday when im off. Agree ! ... anyway, as they say "thems the basics" that I would be looking at. Something has changed thats caused the carbie to behave differently. Could even be that Penrite oil behaving differently sitting in the carbie bowl? Best of luck mate. Cheers Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back cruncher Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Hi all...once you have checked your float level ect,check to see if your slow jets not blocked,it gives similar symptoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Ranger Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Good luck Fab. Keep us posted on what you find Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fab1 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 2 hours ago, zmk1962 said: Agree ! ... anyway, as they say "thems the basics" that I would be looking at. Something has changed thats caused the carbie to behave differently. Could even be that Penrite oil behaving differently sitting in the carbie bowl? Best of luck mate. Cheers Z Thanks mate. 2 hours ago, back cruncher said: Hi all...once you have checked your float level ect,check to see if your slow jets not blocked,it gives similar symptoms. Will go through it with a fine tooth comb mate. 44 minutes ago, Noo2OzFish said: Good luck Fab. Keep us posted on what you find Bear Will do.Ill post my findings good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fab1 Posted October 26, 2018 Author Share Posted October 26, 2018 Well,turns out my carby is clean with no blocked jets and needle and seat is in good nick.I measured float height and is within spec too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmk1962 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Well that leaves erratic firing (misfire) - broken plugs, leads, cdi ignition circuit - as a possible cause of wet plugs. But that would not explain why the bulb goes soft. I’d reassemble the carbie and see how she runs and if the bulb stays hard. Could have been a bit of gunk interfering the needle that’s now washed away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmk1962 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Ahhh. Also just saw the choke solenoid. Have you checked choke operation and that all the choke links are in correct place. One of my links was held in place by a rubber o-ring that slipped over a notch in a shaft. It fell off once and left the choke closed. I replaced that o-ring with a metal circlip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolongeramember Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, zmk1962 said: Well that leaves erratic firing (misfire) - broken plugs, leads, cdi ignition circuit - as a possible cause of wet plugs. But that would not explain why the bulb goes soft. The fuel/ pressure is probably just slowly leaking back into the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmk1962 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Yup that would explain the bulb going soft - but not the plugs being wet. Unless there are two independent problems at same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fab1 Posted October 26, 2018 Author Share Posted October 26, 2018 Ok,pressure tested the needle and seat in the closed position with my finger lightly pressing on the needle with compressed air and i could hear air leaking past a little. I polished the seats bore along with the needle tip to a mirror finish and re-tried above and no more leaks.The seat and needle looked like new with no worn ring around the rubber tipped needle at all before i even did ththis. Choke etc is all good and carby is clean as a whistle(Like brand new). This is the needle seats bore before i polished it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back cruncher Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Hi all...did you blow thru the fuel line to check the float level ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back cruncher Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Hi all...your last post wasnt there when i replied last LOL. use your mouth to blow rather than compressed air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fab1 Posted October 26, 2018 Author Share Posted October 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, back cruncher said: Hi all...did you blow thru the fuel line to check the float level ? Yes,the float height is/already was udjusted to specs. Everything on the carby is as should be and the only thing i could find wrong with it was that leaky needle and seat which has been fixed. The bore after polishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fab1 Posted October 26, 2018 Author Share Posted October 26, 2018 Float is all good,no splits etc and set at 15mm above carb body as per specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmk1962 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Time to reassemble. Grab a cold one to steady the nerves and fire her up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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