Using NON-Australian standard ticked life jackets???

[vcreation]

hey guys, so i have 2 'AUSTRALIAN Standard' inflatable life jackets onboard, they are the ones u get from a shop for $70-100, and 3 regular life jackets and 1 watersport life jacket (PFD Type 2, or 50) for waterskiing. i rarely ever go on the boat with more than 2 people, on top of that those life jackets probably never be used in your entire life, so i figure that i buy all inflatable as they are taking up HUGE space in the cabin/side pockets.

lately i just purchased 4x cheap $25 each inflatable life jackets, only to relise they do not have the AS4758.1 printed on. they are rated L150N, i inspected those life jackets and take the air bladder out. and compare to the one WITH the ticks from a shop, they are exactly the same to the millimeter. the outside shield is also the same. quality of material seems the same and does not leak, the inflate mechanism even got the SAME CE/QC number on it!

so is this just australian government charges u $50 to punch their stamp on it or is it really? from what im seeing i really don't doubt the functionally and quality of the plain non-brand, non-standard life jackets. problem is when waterpolice check life jackets, will they get u a fine cos they are non-ticked? i almost never have more than 2 people on boat, and boat is safe honestly im sure 99.999999999% i'd never need a life jacket in this life on this boat. but hey what do u guys think? cos on newyears eve id have 6 people on boat and if police check life jacket may fine u? would u go with non-ticked jackets or pay the $200 TAX for the tick?

Edited December 19, 2018 by vcreation

[PaddyT]

Ok the fine is one thing-BUT - if you had an accident were someone was hurt or lost their life- you as the skipper would be fully liable and not having suitable LJ's on board would be the first thing that would cause you to be fully liable, personally im going to get rid of the inflatables soon and go back to the zip up type, id rather rely on one of them in an emergency

[zmk1962]

I'm 100% with @PaddyT on this topic ... both with having them onboard and with moving back to non inflatable (in fact I am already in process - anyone want 4 marlin inflatables that require a service free of charge?)

Cheers Z

 

[PaddyT]

15 minutes ago, zmk1962 said:

I'm 100% with @PaddyT on this topic ... both with having them onboard and with moving back to non inflatable (in fact I am already in process - anyone want 4 marlin inflatables that require a service free of charge?)

Cheers Z

 

Hi zoran, ive been looking for the old Burke zip up types but havent had any luck, still got some small adult,kids sized ones but not adult- have you seen them anywhere?

[big Neil]

I don't want to put a damper on things but would like to comment on your post. You are being conscientious by acknowledging that the "Australian Standard" stamp has some relevance, as indeed it does. You are also acknowledging your responsibility as Skipper of the vessel. Another point for consideration though, is how your insurance company would react, in the event of you making a claim? My experiences with them are that they will use any and all loopholes to minimize or refuse a claim. I know that you calculate your risk as LOW, but the whole purpose of being insured is to have the unlikely fully covered. Cheers, bn

[vcreation]

55 minutes ago, zmk1962 said:

(in fact I am already in process - anyone want 4 marlin inflatables that require a service free of charge?

Well. I got 2x adult type 1, 1x small adult 40-60kg type 1 and 1x type 2(watersport) all non inflatable. If ur in sydney I wouldn't mind a swap. I cant see myself carrying 6x non-inflatables take up all the room! Ps I'd probably have more than 2 people twice a year on clam waters. Chances of using them is zero just need to show to police.

[zmk1962]

37 minutes ago, PaddyT said:

Hi zoran, ive been looking for the old Burke zip up types but havent had any luck, still got some small adult,kids sized ones but not adult- have you seen them anywhere?

Hi mate... no I have not. Been looking my self.  I have plenty of storage on my boat so I currently have 6 of the pull over your head type, 2 yellow block types and 2 kids zip up burkes (up to 40kg).  We have only ever donned jackets once when running through a squall coming back from 12mile (4.5hrs  for 20km of boating - in a 6.5m offshore hull with a 200hp - so go figure how bad it was). But I would like to have the zip up adult burkes on board as they are much more comfortable and useable.

Hey maybe if @DINGA is reading they might source a stack for interested FishRaiders !!!!!

25 minutes ago, big Neil said:

I don't want to put a damper on things but would like to comment on your post. You are being conscientious by acknowledging that the "Australian Standard" stamp has some relevance, as indeed it does. You are also acknowledging your responsibility as Skipper of the vessel. Another point for consideration though, is how your insurance company would react, in the event of you making a claim? My experiences with them are that they will use any and all loopholes to minimize or refuse a claim. I know that you calculate your risk as LOW, but the whole purpose of being insured is to have the unlikely fully covered. Cheers, bn

Well said Neil.  Often the situation may not be your fault ... some other boat runs into you. The need for approved LJs is there and is a skippers responsibility.  I guess the best analogy is car seat belts - the car better have them, they better be AS approved and the driver is responsible for the passengers to wear them as per the various rules.

Cheers Zoran

 

[zmk1962]

5 minutes ago, vcreation said:

Well. I got 2x adult type 1, 1x small adult 40-60kg type 1 and 1x type 2(watersport) all non inflatable. If ur in sydney I wouldn't mind a swap. I cant see myself carrying 6x non-inflatables take up all the room! Ps I'd probably have more than 2 people twice a year on clam waters. Chances of using them is zero just need to show to police.

hey @vcreation , the inflatables do not comply if they do not have a current inspection certificate - just showing them to police will not get you out of trouble if they check the specs and also in some regard they may give you a false sense of security - you don't want to find out they do not work when you need them most. 

You are welcome to have the jackets (gratis) just PM me your mobile and we can arrange pickup, I am sydney based ... I do not plan to use them anymore. I've costed a full inspection service on mine -  its about $30 per jacket to have an authorised centre do it. 

Cheers Zoran

[savit]

Alternative opinion here:

PFDs do not have to be ' australian-ticked' as long as they still comply/conform with allowed overseas/international standards. Links to standards here:

https://maritimemanagement.transport.nsw.gov.au/lifejackets/lifejacket-law/index.html

https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/maritime/safety-rules/safety-equipment/lifejackets.html

 

Current inspection certificate is not required when PFD if self-serviced per manufacturers requirements/instructions. You just need to keep a record  handy.

Link here:

https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/maritime/safety-rules/safety-equipment/lifejackets.html

and quote extracts from the link here:

1.'

"Important note: inflatable lifejackets must be serviced

Inflatable lifejackets must be serviced at least every 12 months or at longer intervals in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions."

2. 

"Self servicing

Some manufacturers allow you to 'self service' your lifejacket, provided you do so in accordance with their instructions.

If the manufacturer allows self servicing you should be competent to do so. Otherwise you should get it serviced professionally, which is a higher level of inspection and replacement of parts than 'self service'.

If you are self servicing, follow the manufacturer’s instructions carefully. If there is a service record in the inside of the jacket, sign and date the service record with a permanent marker. If not, make a paper record of your own and keep a copy handy on board the vessel."

 

Example of PFD manufacturer requirements (Marlin)

Link:

https://www.marlin-australia.com.au/servicing.html

Extract from page 1 : ANNUAL SELF INSPECTION AND SERVICE INSTRUCTIONS It is recommended that an accredited service agent conducts a full inspection of your PFD every 5 years from day of purchace."

[zmk1962]

Hey @savit , everything you say is as I understand it. When I mentioned inspection certificate - I included in that "self certification" ... producing a record of your self service is infact producing an inspection certificate according to the rules you quoted above.

The jackets I'm giving away are beyond 5yrs old, and definitely in the range of  "It is recommended that an accredited service agent conducts a full inspection of your PFD every 5 years from day of purchase."  

It's unsaid what happens if you do not follow the manufacturers recommendation... this is the grey area ... but I can have a fairly good guess at whom they would throw the book at if something went sideways! ... probably the person that used the product beyond manufacturers recommendation.  

Anyway,  to avoid all this annual or bi-annual hassle, I am with @PaddyT and will move back to the traditional life jacket models (as I mentioned previously, I do have the luxury of storage space on my boat). 

Cheers Zoran

 

 

[savit]

@zmk1962

Hey Zoran. That's fine. 

I use traditional/vest PFD - no inspections , no expiry, no extra costs. Best $10 spent on clearance 5 years ago. I 'self-tested' it  a week ago on the water- still holds and looks fine though I wash it every time.

[Fishop]

I know your from NSW but MSQ (Marine Safety Queensland) states:-

 

• lifejackets must comply and display information about which Australian Standard (AS) applies. The lifejacket must comply with this standard. The current standard is AS 4758, which has replaced AS 1512-1996, AS 1499-1996 and AS 2260-1996. Lifejackets that meet these previous standards are still acceptable to use if they are in good condition. 

[antonywardle]

One inspection while on a mates boat, Maritime said that the life jackets were too faded and should be replaced. There might be a bit of inspector interpretation going on too

 

 

[Kevwing]

Honestly, its kinda unfair
I bought a $320 life jacket earlier in the year and it won't be compliant just because it doesn't meet Australian Standard but it meets Japanese standards.

I understand the importance of Australian standards but if a well known brand meets Standards in a country like Japan which also has high standards, i don't see why they can't transfer it.

[zmk1962]

1 hour ago, Kevwing said:

Honestly, its kinda unfair
I bought a $320 life jacket earlier in the year and it won't be compliant just because it doesn't meet Australian Standard but it meets Japanese standards.

I understand the importance of Australian standards but if a well known brand meets Standards in a country like Japan which also has high standards, i don't see why they can't transfer it.

@Kevwing please read @savit's detailed response above. He provided a couple of links. One of those clearly states that you need to have an AS approved jacket or and International Standard equivalent.... excerpt below.

Or are you saying your Japanese jacket does not specify any ISO standard... just a Japanese standard. If so, maybe you can write to the manufacturer and seek their written response as to what is the equivalent international standard... $320 does not sound like a trivial jacket.

Cheers Zoran

 

 

[dunc333]

there is a iso standard which will comply i have just been told 12402 regardsdunc333

Edited December 23, 2018 by dunc333

[dunc333]

as above lol

[antonywardle]

So what happens if I am wearing a life jacket that isn't compliant, but I have have those block ones that are , on board?

Assuming that my boat is bigger than 4.8m so I only need to have them on board if I'm solo, or I have enough compliant ones for the amount of people on board.

[dunc333]

if your wearing the non compliant pfd you will be assesed with that pfd ,ie date last serviced ,aus or iso standard.

[Rebel]

Hi,

Can I ask another question. When life jackets become compulsory on the rocks which they will be down the track. Will Police and fishing inspectors be checking life jackets ? I wear a waist belt which is very comfortable. It is a 150N and it has AS4758 approved stamped on it.

Happy new year to everybody.

[antonywardle]

8 hours ago, dunc333 said:

if your wearing the non compliant pfd you will be assesed with that pfd ,ie date last serviced ,aus or iso standard.

Really? That doesn't make sense, and I'm not doubting you, but if I don't have it on then they would look at the block ones and say I'm good. Maybe I'll have to pull a maritime over and ask them 😉

I guess I can just call it a coat, and then everyone wins 😉

 

[dunc333]

yes i reckon you ask a bso .I like your coat  appeal.lol and to rebel yes inspectors ,police can and do check service dates on pfd,s ,open your bum bag pfd you will see a service tag in there read it and inspect pfd .you can self service your own pfd1 inflatable bum bag up to 5 years depending on the manufacturer also google rms lifejacket self service .for full info cheers dunc 333

[dunc333]

i would just like to add .if you ever get in trouble a serviced pfd should inflate when you need it hence the rules.as paddy said you can just buy normal pfd 1s and all is good to

[antonywardle]

While checking to see what I need on my new boat, I found this line on Maritime website:

 

For enclosed and open waters, all safety equipment carried on board must be: • In good condition and meet appropriate standards or specifications • Maintained or serviced according to manufacturer’s specifications • Replaced before the expiry date listed by manufacturer (if applicable) • Stored in an easily accessible location.

 

So the way that I read this is if it is on board, it have to current. SO that would mean that I can't carry expired flares as a backup to my in date ones?

I'm definitely going to have to flag down an inspector and ask them. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kevwing]

On 12/21/2018 at 3:23 PM, zmk1962 said:

@Kevwing please read @savit's detailed response above. He provided a couple of links. One of those clearly states that you need to have an AS approved jacket or and International Standard equivalent.... excerpt below.

Or are you saying your Japanese jacket does not specify any ISO standard... just a Japanese standard. If so, maybe you can write to the manufacturer and seek their written response as to what is the equivalent international standard... $320 does not sound like a trivial jacket.

Cheers Zoran

 

 

At this stage, i don't think it does. ( could be wrong however)
There is a large community of us who use these life jackets. We pay over $200 for them. Some even up to $550
Our fishing store manager has been trying to push these jackets for a year now but they won't accept it. Turns out they don't meet international standards
They want the big companies to do the testing which will cost hundreds of thousands. Unfortunately, there is no way they will do them because they don't sell these jackets in Australia. Mostly because, i don't think the market is the same here. All the Shimano and Daiwa Jackets sold here are under $200 and do the trick. However, the ones we buy have heaps of pockets, holders, straps for the waist and thighs, accessories and additional safety gear. Like whistles and flashers on our jacket.  Some with even neck buoyancy too. 

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/southern-courier/rock-fishers-call-for-a-change-to-nsw-laws-forcing-them-to-wear-a-life-jacket/news-story/260c4b93789e9494383b18f2d7980c5b
http://www.fishingworld.com.au/news/rock-fishers-warned-on-non-compliant-iso-fishing-jackets

 

Edit:  "leisure life jackets/ Floating vests" just don't qualify and there isn't a market for someone to do the testing for it.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Kevwing