Energy Bills

[Guest Guest123456789]

Thought I’d share a story of bill shock then bill happiness.

my third quarter power bill arrived in September at $1238.65. My previous bill was $1172.19 and the one before that $845.07.

$1238.65 per quarter is too much so we made some changes. My wife was using the dryer a lot. With two small kids and a clothesline that’s a trek through the dirt and wildlife hanging the clothes up was not appealing. So I assembled a new folding rack at the side of the house which is well lit, closer and paved. She now hardly uses the dryer.

Aircon was the other big cost. We have a 70’s fibro house with a steel roof. We do have foam insulation in the roof and we are on stumps 1 metre from the ground. Even on 25 degree days the house was hot (hotter than outside) and often the aircon would come on. I installed two whirlybirds on the roof which sucks cooler in through vents under the eaves and also through internal wall vents, then expels the hot air out the whirlybirds. Previously my theory is that the hot air from the roof was pushed down through the vents into the house(it’s a myth hot air ONLY rises). The difference was massive, maybe 8 degree cooler on a hot day. The other thing I installed was three window awnings on three windows facing west as these three rooms were hit with the afternoon sun which heats room the same per square metre as an oil heater. Another major difference. Combined, I think the air con reduction is about 70%.

i also replaces all the light globes with fluorescent lights.

i also unplug the tv from the mains before going to bed as standby power draw occurs. Also the apple iMac I programmed to automatically shut down and reboot at night and in the morning.

finally, I renegotiated my bill with current provider and get a 28% discount off 28.5 cents per kWh with a daily rate of 84 cents (about 11% saving on old rates). Off peak is pontless for us as having a family we draw most power during meal times.

im pleased that my December bill came in at $653.65 and we consumed 33% less power than last quarter. Some of the changes made were during the quarter so I expect we might get to $500 per quarter and use less than half the amount of power. I’ve planed a frangipani st front of house which should provide good shade in about 5 years time during summer but she’d its leaves in winter to allow solar heating. 

Thanks for reading and feel free to share any other tips for saving in energy usage. Cheers,

Luke.

[GoingFishing]

What a great read ! Amazing how much $$ can be saved by making some simple changes.

Extra points for not running to what i call the modern worlds biggest scam (solar panels). 

Im not an thermal expert, but your myth about hot air being pushed into the house is not totally incorrect. Yes in terms of simple physics hot air rises. But thermal efficiency of homes is not that simple, different materials give off different heat and roof design has a big part to play. The roof void can in essence become "pressurised" forcing hot air into the house. This happens because hot air "expands" when heated as opposed to cooled. This forces hot air out via all openings. ( into the house)

The installation of the whirly bird probably allows hot air to escape and equalizes the air pressure in your roof void !

Edited December 28, 2018 by GoingFishing

[Guest Guest123456789]

56 minutes ago, GoingFishing said:

What a great read ! Amazing how much $$ can be saved by making some simple changes.

Extra points for not running to what i call the modern worlds biggest scam (solar panels). 

Im not an thermal expert, but your myth about hot air being pushed into the house is not totally incorrect. Yes in terms of simple physics hot air rises. But thermal efficiency of homes is not that simple, different materials give off different heat and roof design has a big part to play. The roof void can in essence become "pressurised" forcing hot air into the house. This happens because hot air "expands" when heated as opposed to cooled. This forces hot air out via all openings. ( into the house)

The installation of the whirly bird probably allows hot air to escape and equalizes the air pressure in your roof void !

Thanks Sam, yeah the previous owner had a steel roof, then bought a new steel roof and guess what? Didn’t remove the old roof, so I have two steel roof’s and definitely the air was trapped. So as you mention the hot air expanding I guess had one place to go, the cooler, less dense rooms in my living and bedrooms via the wall vents!

i looked at solar but saw it as a plan B. It makes a lot of sense for hot water and we have solar hot water which definitely has paid for itself over its lifetime.

[JonD]

Our house once had a heat pump hot water pump, meaning our electric metre doesn't have the off peak cheaper night time electricity. The cost of getting it put back has put me off having it done, especially considering how little electricity we use.

Our house is great for collecting heat from the sun during winter and though it can get warm in summer, simply closing the blinds helps heaps.

We are a family of five and regularly have the kids friends stay over for weekends. We have a deep freeze and a giant sized fridge freezer. The kids all have computers but most of the time they are outside doing some sort of exploring.

I changed to led bulbs for even better economy than fluro which seemed to blow every time we had ellectricle storms. We all tend to be good at turning off lights around the house which obviously reflects in our bills.

Our last bill was $236 and winter bills are closer to $300, while our biggest bill was almost $350.

The kids are environmentally minded and so have no problems showing in under 3 mins, they used to use a timer but that novelty wore off.

 

[Fab1]

3 hours ago, JonD said:

Our house once had a heat pump hot water pump, meaning our electric metre doesn't have the off peak cheaper night time electricity. The cost of getting it put back has put me off having it done, especially considering how little electricity we use.

Our house is great for collecting heat from the sun during winter and though it can get warm in summer, simply closing the blinds helps heaps.

We are a family of five and regularly have the kids friends stay over for weekends. We have a deep freeze and a giant sized fridge freezer. The kids all have computers but most of the time they are outside doing some sort of exploring.

I changed to led bulbs for even better economy than fluro which seemed to blow every time we had ellectricle storms. We all tend to be good at turning off lights around the house which obviously reflects in our bills.

Our last bill was $236 and winter bills are closer to $300, while our biggest bill was almost $350.

The kids are environmentally minded and so have no problems showing in under 3 mins, they used to use a timer but that novelty wore off.

 

We would need to huddle in a swag to get your bills.Ours is $1300+ each and every bill cycle.I have friends with bigger houses than mine,more people ,run a/c etc (I don't) getting $600- bill cycles.

We originally thought that there was something wrong with meter but had it checked twice.

We've always had high bills in the 18yrs we've lived here.

If i had your bills id go on a cruise to celebrate.

[Welster]

As a builder I see a few houses with roofing over roofing but not a lot.

Before I got divorced my power bills ranged from 800 to 1800. That’s with running a pool too.  Hot water and some heating is gas.   As the house is largeish single story with 10ft ceilings it has a big AC unit 22kw that uses a fair wack of power.

We have 80 odd halogen  downlights the 6 in the kitchen I changed to LED and plan to do the whole house eventually.

I have a 5kw solar system and for the last 5 or 6 years my bills have been between 100 and 600 per quarter.   I have the pool running during a day when the panels are producing the most.   I don’t mind the house pretty cool in winter but give the AC a workout over summer.

But enough talk  about that I’m flicking the AC on and going fishing.

 

 

 

[big Neil]

We have a large 5 b/r, two storey house and I fitted solar when I retired 7 years ago. It paid for itself within 2 years and continues to provide around 7 -10 kW per day (most days). We have evaporative A/C for upstairs and 2 small units downstairs. With 40 degree days fairly common here, you can imagine they get used a lot. Bills average to about $600 per qtr. I don't know if I have fallen victim to the scam which Sam refers to?? Suits my needs to live in comfort and be able to afford to do so. Cheers, bn

[kingie chaser]

Imagine how many solar panels where smashed to pieces in those recent hail storms in SEQ & Sydney,NSW!!

Make sure if your adding them they get added to your insurance policies!

 

Great work there FHL, more people should look at what can be done to not only reduce their running costs but also to reduce their carbon footprint on the planet.

While I don't agree with the global warming hysteria & this ridiculous Paris agreement which is costing us Australians an absolute fortune in giving our hard earned money to other countries but I do believe in trying to reduce our effects on the earth where we can & make us all more self sustainable for the future.

 

Unfortunately for people like me who rent we don't have the luxury of making changes to the property & must try other methods to save on the qtr bills.

The main one being turning as many electronics as possible off so they are not consuming power on stand by.

I don't have aircon anyway & my apartment is high up & cops a lot of sun as its east/west facing, just a small thing like keeping the blinds closed on the east side of the building in the morning & the west side closed in the arvo make a heap of difference. 

Also not having gas to the building doesn't help either as I would love to be able to run one of those Rennai instant hot water systems as well instead of small tanks that is constantly heating, even having a larger water tank that runs on off peak would be better but these are things that a landlord would have to do & many don't really care as they don't pay for your electricity use, just the water.

Edited December 28, 2018 by kingie chaser

[Berleyguts]

We used to have quite high electricity bills. Our biggest was over $2000 (pay on time) for the quarter. We have a fair sized pool, ducted air con upstairs and downstairs, 3 bathrooms and the washing machine gets a workout (a few loads each day - my son uses 3 towels per day! ). The hot water heater is a 135 litre twin element off peak but it’s under the house, so it takes a while for hot water to reach the taps upstairs. We had 52 x 50w halogen downlights. I changed all but 3 of them to 5w LEDs and our usage dropped considerably (there are 2 left over the stairs I can’t reach until I buy one of those Transformer Ladders from TV and 1 that will not work with a LED until I change the transformer, or the whole unit). I ran the pool filter for 4-6 hours each night on off peak. My wife works from home and her Mum and my son are home most of the time, so most usage is during the day. 4-5 adults living in the house, 3 large living areas, multiple computers running most of the time, 5 TVs etc. Somebody’s usually up until 1am and someone’s always up by 5am. The front of the house faces east, so my wife’s office cops sun from very early and gets hot quickly.  The lounge room and family room at the back face west with big windows and, although they are nice and cool in the morning, they get quite hot in the arvo. We tend to put the air con on quite early in the summer, although we do get nice cross breezes, so open up the windows when we can. Just over a year ago, we installed a 6.5kw solar system with 23 panels on interest free terms (we paid a lot more than we see advertised on TV these days - maybe we got ripped off but it is supposed to be a top quality system). I now run the pool filter during the middle of the day and we try to do the laundry and run the dishwasher during the day rather than at night. We get 11c per kWh feed in tariff for power exported to the grid but we still use more power than we produce. However, the solar analytics app on my phone tells me I saved $55+ in the last week through solar consumed on site. It’s not as good in winter, of course. Since installing solar, my biggest bill has been about $1100 (pay on time). I’m still to install shade sails to shade the front of the house (east) but not sure what I’ll do for the back (west), which is quite high up - I don’t want awnings that block our view (glimpses)  over the water. My son and his girlfriend have just bought a Toyota Coaster motorhome, so once they commence their travels, I expect that usage will drop considerably. I might change the locks when they leave! 😂😂 The other improvement I’m thinking of is connecting the lights in the downstairs rumpus and garage etc. to motion sensors, so I don’t wake up in the middle of the night stressing if they’re still on and have to head downstairs to switch them off.

I told my wife when our son moves out and her Mum passes, we should sell the house and buy a 50ft cruiser and berth it at the nearby marina and live on that and travel up and down the coast! 😂😂

Edited December 29, 2018 by Berleyguts

[Guest Guest123456789]

I think the best thing everyone can do is get as many windows shaded as possible over summer. Internal blinds DONT do much to stop heat gain, often they just turn into a heat radiator. Sun on windows is the BIGGEST source of heat gain.

Here is my awning made from scrap materials from a recycled material yard. Total cost: $9. One of the benefits of owning a cheap, crap house is you can use cheap, crap materials and it blends in! 

This shades the window in our master bedroom which before the  awning install was off limits in the afternoon because it was a sauna. This awning works because in winter the suns angle hits the glass more. Other options are external, adjustable blinds or deciduous trees.

[Berleyguts]

2 hours ago, flatheadluke said:

I think the best thing everyone can do is get as many windows shaded as possible over summer. Internal blinds DONT do much to stop heat gain, often they just turn into a heat radiator. Sun on windows is the BIGGEST source of heat gain.

Here is my awning made from scrap materials from a recycled material yard. Total cost: $9. One of the benefits of owning a cheap, crap house is you can use cheap, crap materials and it blends in! 

This shades the window in our master bedroom which before the  awning install was off limits in the afternoon because it was a sauna. This awning works because in winter the suns angle hits the glass more. Other options are external, adjustable blinds or deciduous trees.

I agree, which is why I’m looking at shade sails for the front. We used to get shade from our neighbours jacaranda but the April storm took care of that! 😉 I put a market umbrella up outside my wife’s office each morning and that helps quite a bit. It will be a while before my tropical gardens in the front yard reach an optimum height for cooling. I definitely need to install those shade sails. The only reason I’ve held off is that I’m not confident on attaching to the house safely (that, and I’m not looking forward to digging the 800mm deep holes for the posts!). I still don’t know what to do for the back windows, being so high up.... probably will need custom made, professionally installed, electric wind out awnings. 🤔

Edited December 29, 2018 by Berleyguts

[Guest Guest123456789]

2 hours ago, Berleyguts said:

I agree, which is why I’m looking at shade sails for the front. We used to get shade from our neighbours jacaranda but the April storm took care of that! 😉 I put a market umbrella up outside my wife’s office each morning and that helps quite a bit. It will be a while before my tropical gardens in the front yard reach an optimum height for cooling. I definitely need to install those shade sails. The only reason I’ve held off is that I’m not confident on attaching to the house safely (that, and I’m not looking forward to digging the 800mm deep holes for the posts!). I still don’t know what to do for the back windows, being so high up.... probably will need custom made, professionally installed, electric wind out awnings. 🤔

A beautiful house and garden like yours mate I’d be consulting an expert to help select and install something quality that will last and add value to your property. My house I plan on bowling over in 5 years time so bodgy DIY doesn’t matter

[zmk1962]

@Berleyguts has pretty well described my house - quite large two storeys, 5br place with ducted 3-zone A/C, faces east, afternoon sun on living areas, saltwater pool etc.  Typical quarterly bill around $1100-1600.

Over a couple of years I did the halogen to LED swaps, installed roller shatters on western windows (also helped against hail storms), installed pergola/carport on northern side (shades most of the lower level rooms on that side).  Installed ceiling fans in all bedrooms and living areas (a bit of circulating air = big difference in comfort).  I had traditional yellow bats in the roof as insulation - but found the roof void still got extremely hot,  so on went 3 large whirly birds. But even though I lowered my consumption 30% my power bill stayed the same as the energy retailers increased prices >30%. 

Next, I bit the bullet and retro-insulated my roof and subfloor - using a Kingspan retroshield product (foil on both sides sandwiching 8mm of high density foam).  The shield is installed so as to leave an 80-100mm gap between the roof tiles  - the foil reflects 95-98% of heat before it gets in to the roof void. The foam does the rest of the insulation.  MASSIVE difference.  Even today with 38C outside the downstairs area is 20C. Upstairs warm 25C but tolerable - but we do not live upstairs during the day. The installation of the retro-shield is a B*ST*RD OF A JOB !  I vowed to my self I will never DIY again (7 full days in the roof and 5 full days subfloor) ... but it was worth it. 

By shielding the roof and the subfloor I pretty well have the house like an esky.  Wintertime heat stays in, summer time heat stays out.

This further dropped our energy consumption - but again all benefits were eaten up by the energy retailers jacking up prices.

So the last step for us for to take a serious look at this solar thing.  I agree with @GoingFishing unless you go in with some knowledge you will most likely get scammed.  

First thing to realise is that not all solar systems are equal.  Apart from the obvious high quality solar panel vs cheap panels consideration, there is a huge difference in performance  that comes from the design of how the panels are connected together and where and how the inverter technology is placed in the system. 

This article best summarised these points to me:  https://solaray.com.au/enphase-micro-inverters-vs-string-inverter-even-unshaded-roof/

Frankly the only way anyone got real value or payback on the older style single string (single inverter) systems given how they perform was with the crazy high FIT (feed in tariffs) that were being paid in the early days. These FITs are long gone from the energy retailer offerings. Which brings to mind that if you are considering a solar system your benefit is TIED to how your energy retailer treats you.  If you get the inferior solar set up (they are offered really cheap on TV and door to door) and stay with the wrong energy retailer - its a SCAM!

So my first step on the solar path was to look around at different energy retailers approaches to solar and secondly try and get a clear understanding of our household (4 working adults, 2 dogs) 24hr energy consumption - morning, day, evening, overnight.  (Remember you cant generate solar power during the night and my gut told me the battery technology was still not there...!)

I found my then current energy retailer (Origin) was completely focussed on lock in contracts armed with an array of unintelligible discount offerings - none of which I could assess as I had not clear idea of my consumption. I found a retailer (Mojo) who as part of the transition to them would install a smart meter which was accompanied by an App that fed back to me my household consumption by the hour for each 24 hour period. for the month, for the year etc.  The App also let me sample real time what my house hold consumption was - so if I manually turned on the pool pump I could see the increase in consumption for the pump. Similarly the patio heaters, the washing machine, dishwasher, ladies hairdryers, curling wands, bathroom heaters etc etc etc.  I figured it was worth swapping just to get an understanding of our energy usage pattern.

Over a few months I developed a profile of power use for the morning and evening peaks, the daytime and overnight. The App also converts these to $/c at the Mojo rates - Peak Load power is sold at Mojo whole sale buy price approx $0.26/kWh and offpeak at $0.13/kWh ... there is no uplift (so no discount offered).  Mojo also offer two solar FITs $0.20/kWh for the first 2000kwh (first 5kWh per day) and $0.10/kWh for the remainder.  

Since we do not have gas in the street, our overnight was dominated by  offpeak hot water (supplied at a cost of 13c/kwh), and the fridges and freezer and pool pump/chlorinator (supplied at a cost of 26.6c/kwh) ... remember just because it runs at night does not mean its offpeak - it has to be hard wired into the offpeak circuit to get the offpeak rate - and all these devices were not!  

I then figured out which devices I could move to run during prime daylight hours - without changing our lifestyle !!!  Moving devices such as the pool operation to run during the day was a dead easy process of changing the timer. Starting the family washing mid morning vs evening was an easy decision for us - most things have timers these days. 

All this helped me size our solar system so that all our peak load, heavy devices use was covered during the day.  I upped the size a bit to  generate a little extra that I could sell back to the grid to partially cover the overnight load which I could not change. eg generate 5kWh extra @ $0.20 = $1.00/day credit. 

So here are some numbers for our household : overnight it costs me about 7kw of hotwater off peak = $0.91.  The distributor activates the controlled load (off peak). I have no choice when they activate this but I have to buy this. The rest of our household TVs, LED lights, Fridges consumed $0.25/hr evening.... then dropped to $0.17/hr overnight  ... so 7hrs overnight = 7x 0.17 = $1.19. Plus offpeak = $2.10. Plus 2-3hrs TV say all up $2.50 each night.

We installed an 8.5kW micro inverter system in mid winter 2018  (26 panels, 26 micro inverters).  Each panel and inverter works independently and can be monitored independently. If one panel breaks,  I have lost 1/26th of my generation capacity etc.

At this stage I am yet to get a full years worth of data... but frankly I could not be happier.

We all know November was a very rainy month - not the best for solar production - heres my Nov report from Mojo App (this is the energy retailer report which takes into account offpeak costs)... infact my last three month bills have been $67, $69, $119 = $255/qtr.  A far cry from the $1600 previously.

Heres a sample from my Solar system control module... which cannot see offpeak ... it tracks energy consumed (orange), energy generated (blue) ....dark orange is purchased from grid (consumed)...you can see evening peak we started the oven etc., dark blue is exported to grid (sold)..... Light blue is solar generated that was used to service the light orange consumption.

So far my projection is that I am saving about $3-3500 pa.... on a cost of $13000.  So a 3-4yr payback.  For us it was an easy decision to make the the solar investment as we planned to stay at our place for the next 10+yrs. 

A few final comments on Batteries.

Yes we could install a 10kw battery (about $10000 today). This would handle our overnight load. But at best it would save us $2.50 per night. ... $10000/2.50 = 4000 nights = 10.95yr payback.  All battery systems today degrade - infact it is highly likely that we would have to replace the battery system during the 10yr period.  Franky I don't see a battery solution adding up fo us for some time.

At present, I'm leaning more toward adding a few more panels and generating a few more credits (use the grid and energy retailer as a ca$h battery) ... but I'll wait to see how I go for a full 12month cycle to get experience with all the seasonal variations. ... It would be good to see how much I can put into the ca$h battery over summer!

Anyway, it has turned out to be a very long post, I hope this helps at least set out that not all solar systems are the same, and you really need to get across your own usage pattern, and your energy retailer offerings to get the benefits.

Cheers Zoran

PS - a colleague of mine installed a nearly identical solar system as mine at the same time- guess who did the negotiation for both. He was with Origin for 3 months (offering a flat FIT 10c/kWh + with various discounts) and I was with Mojo. At the end of the quarter we compared our bills. He is now with Mojo. 

PPS - I DO NOT WORK FOR MOJO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Edited December 29, 2018 by zmk1962

[zmk1962]

10 hours ago, kingie chaser said:

Imagine how many solar panels where smashed to pieces in those recent hail storms in SEQ & Sydney,NSW!!

Happy to report that NONE of my 26 panels were damaged. 19 North facing and 7 West facing.  The storm hit the Hills district from the North West ... so my panels bore the brunt.  No damage.

Cheers Zoran

 

[GoingFishing]

54 minutes ago, zmk1962 said:

@Berleyguts has pretty well described my house - quite large two storeys, 5br place with ducted 3-zone A/C, faces east, afternoon sun on living areas, saltwater pool etc.  Typical quarterly bill around $1100-1600.

Over a couple of years I did the halogen to LED swaps, installed roller shatters on western windows (also helped against hail storms), installed pergola/carport on northern side (shades most of the lower level rooms on that side).  Installed ceiling fans in all bedrooms and living areas (a bit of circulating air = big difference in comfort).  I had traditional yellow bats in the roof as insulation - but found the roof void still got extremely hot,  so on went 3 large whirly birds. But even though I lowered my consumption 30% my power bill stayed the same as the energy retailers increased prices >30%. 

Next, I bit the bullet and retro-insulated my roof and subfloor - using a Kingspan retroshield product (foil on both sides sandwiching 8mm of high density foam).  The shield is installed so as to leave an 80-100mm gap between the roof tiles  - the foil reflects 95-98% of heat before it gets in to the roof void. The foam does the rest of the insulation.  MASSIVE difference.  Even today with 38C outside the downstairs area is 20C. Upstairs warm 25C but tolerable - but we do not live upstairs during the day. The installation of the retro-shield is a B*ST*RD OF A JOB !  I vowed to my self I will never DIY again (7 full days in the roof and 5 full days subfloor) ... but it was worth it. 

By shielding the roof and the subfloor I pretty well have the house like an esky.  Wintertime heat stays in, summer time heat stays out.

This further dropped our energy consumption - but again all benefits were eaten up by the energy retailers jacking up prices.

So the last step for us for to take a serious look at this solar thing.  I agree with @GoingFishing unless you go in with some knowledge you will most likely get scammed.  

First thing to realise is that not all solar systems are equal.  Apart from the obvious high quality solar panel vs cheap panels consideration, there is a huge difference in performance  that comes from the design of how the panels are connected together and where and how the inverter technology is placed in the system. 

This article best summarised these points to me:  https://solaray.com.au/enphase-micro-inverters-vs-string-inverter-even-unshaded-roof/

Frankly the only way anyone got real value or payback on the older style single string (single inverter) systems given how they perform was with the crazy high FIT (feed in tariffs) that were being paid in the early days. These FITs are long gone from the energy retailer offerings. Which brings to mind that if you are considering a solar system your benefit is TIED to how your energy retailer treats you.  If you get the inferior solar set up (they are offered really cheap on TV and door to door) and stay with the wrong energy retailer - its a SCAM!

So my first step on the solar path was to look around at different energy retailers approaches to solar and secondly try and get a clear understanding of our household (4 working adults, 2 dogs) 24hr energy consumption - morning, day, evening, overnight.  (Remember you cant generate solar power during the night and my gut told me the battery technology was still not there...!)

I found my then current energy retailer (Origin) was completely focussed on lock in contracts armed with an array of unintelligible discount offerings - none of which I could assess as I had not clear idea of my consumption. I found a retailer (Mojo) who as part of the transition to them would install a smart meter which was accompanied by an App that fed back to me my household consumption by the hour for each 24 hour period. for the month, for the year etc.  The App also let me sample real time what my house hold consumption was - so if I manually turned on the pool pump I could see the increase in consumption for the pump. Similarly the patio heaters, the washing machine, dishwasher, ladies hairdryers, curling wands, bathroom heaters etc etc etc.  I figured it was worth swapping just to get an understanding of our energy usage pattern.

Over a few months I developed a profile of power use for the morning and evening peaks, the daytime and overnight. The App also converts these to $/c at the Mojo rates - Peak Load power is sold at Mojo whole sale buy price approx $0.26/kWh and offpeak at $0.13/kWh ... there is no uplift (so no discount offered).  Mojo also offer two solar FITs $0.20/kWh for the first 2000kwh (first 5kWh per day) and $0.10/kWh for the remainder.  

Since we do not have gas in the street, our overnight was dominated by  offpeak hot water (supplied at a cost of 13c/kwh), and the fridges and freezer and pool pump/chlorinator (supplied at a cost of 26.6c/kwh) ... remember just because it runs at night does not mean its offpeak - it has to be hard wired into the offpeak circuit to get the offpeak rate - and all these devices were not!  

I then figured out which devices I could move to run during prime daylight hours - without changing our lifestyle !!!  Moving devices such as the pool operation to run during the day was a dead easy process of changing the timer. Starting the family washing mid morning vs evening was an easy decision for us - most things have timers these days. 

All this helped me size our solar system so that all our peak load, heavy devices use was covered during the day.  I upped the size a bit to  generate a little extra that I could sell back to the grid to partially cover the overnight load which I could not change. eg generate 5kWh extra @ $0.20 = $1.00/day credit. 

So here are some numbers for our household : overnight it costs me about 7kw of hotwater off peak = $0.91.  The distributor activates the controlled load (off peak). I have no choice when they activate this but I have to buy this. The rest of our household TVs, LED lights, Fridges consumed $0.25/hr evening.... then dropped to $0.17/hr overnight  ... so 7hrs overnight = 7x 0.17 = $1.19. Plus offpeak = $2.10. Plus 2-3hrs TV say all up $2.50 each night.

We installed an 8.5kW micro inverter system in mid winter 2018  (26 panels, 26 micro inverters).  Each panel and inverter works independently and can be monitored independently. If one panel breaks,  I have lost 1/26th of my generation capacity etc.

At this stage I am yet to get a full years worth of data... but frankly I could not be happier.

We all know November was a very rainy month - not the best for solar production - heres my Nov report from Mojo App (this is the energy retailer report which takes into account offpeak costs)... infact my last three month bills have been $67, $69, $119 = $255/qtr.  A far cry from the $1600 previously.

Heres a sample from my Solar system control module... which cannot see offpeak ... it tracks energy consumed (orange), energy generated (blue) ....dark orange is purchased from grid (consumed)...you can see evening peak we started the oven etc., dark blue is exported to grid (sold)..... Light blue is solar generated that was used to service the light orange consumption.

So far my projection is that I am saving about $3-3500 pa.... on a cost of $13000.  So a 3-4yr payback.  For us it was an easy decision to make the the solar investment as we planned to stay at our place for the next 10+yrs. 

A few final comments on Batteries.

Yes we could install a 10kw battery (about $10000 today). This would handle our overnight load. But at best it would save us $2.50 per night. ... $10000/2.50 = 4000 nights = 10.95yr payback.  All battery systems today degrade - infact it is highly likely that we would have to replace the battery system during the 10yr period.  Franky I don't see a battery solution adding up fo us for some time.

At present, I'm leaning more toward adding a few more panels and generating a few more credits (use the grid and energy retailer as a ca$h battery) ... but I'll wait to see how I go for a full 12month cycle to get experience with all the seasonal variations. ... It would be good to see how much I can put into the ca$h battery over summer!

Anyway, it has turned out to be a very long post, I hope this helps at least set out that not all solar systems are the same, and you really need to get across your own usage pattern, and your energy retailer offerings to get the benefits.

Cheers Zoran

PS - a colleague of mine installed a nearly identical solar system as mine at the same time- guess who did the negotiation for both. He was with Origin for 3 months (offering a flat FIT 10c/kWh + with various discounts) and I was with Mojo. At the end of the quarter we compared our bills. He is now with Mojo. 

PPS - I DO NOT WORK FOR MOJO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I love reading your comments. Engineers love to break complex into simple.

Zoran has pretty much summed up my earlier statement regarding solar panels potentially being an enormous scam.

However i do have some further comments to add to clarify my statement.

Not all solar panel installations are a scam. However my observation is that the vast majority are a scam. 

To add context, my profession is in residential development, projects usually between 20 to 100 dwellings.

Zoran has touched on two important issues which i wont elaborate on further (good brands vs crappy brands and configuration). Because Zoran has nailed these perfectly, i have nothing else to add!

There are some other things to consider.

Roof Orientation

I remember sitting at a friends house and him complaining that his new solar system was not performing as well as he thought. Upon further inspection it became clear that all his solar panels were installed on a south facing roof. I couldnt help but laugh. No the installers were not that stupid. His roof is a skillion roof pitched at 30 degrees and the vast majority (80%) of his roof faces south. So his roof design did not lend itself to a solar system install in the first place, but they were more than happy to take his $$ and install one anyway.

The orientation of the solar panels will somwhat be determined by your roof design. Some roofs have a nice northerly orientation which is ideal for solar panels. Others do not.

If your roof does not have a north orientation and has a say, easterly orientation, your solar panels may only be producing power in the early morning. 

This gets even more complex when you start to consider adjacent tall buildings, trees and other objects which cast shadows onto your roof.

Ultimately, if the solar panels are not orientated correctly, your system may only be producing 50% of the advised capacity.

 

Warranty and Maintenance

Significantly impacted by whether youve purchased cheapy or top quality.  The cheap stuff normally only has a one year warranty. Whats worse is that the systems ability to produce solar power is sat on a sliding scale. The longer it ages, the less power it produces. They are (supposed to be) serviced yearly. Most people will not know how to service the system and if you had a contractor out to do it you eat into savings.

Of the 9 times i was asked by a client to look into solar systems, 7 projects did not meet the financial viability test. Ie. By the time you factor in expected life span versus savings and upfront+ongoing costs it was almost always a cost neutral exercise.

 

Lifestyle

Zoran touched on the need to know how your lifestyle and energy provider contract impact on the financial viability of a solar system installation.

If you are retired, work from home or have alot of appliances running all day, then a solar system could be a financially viable option.

If your household is such that there is no one home between 8am and 5pm then your savings will be significantly less because the vast majority of your energy use is happening at a time when the solar panels are useless (early morning or late night). Again i have also seen first hand people who would never benefit from solar panels have them installed, and with savings of $100 quarter it would take them decades to pay off the system installation (assuming it lasted that long).

So to summarise, if you want to invest in solar panels you must do your homework as Zoran has done otherwise you (might) get scammed!!!

Edited December 29, 2018 by GoingFishing

[Guest Guest123456789]

51 minutes ago, zmk1962 said:

@Berleyguts has pretty well described my house - quite large two storeys, 5br place with ducted 3-zone A/C, faces east, afternoon sun on living areas, saltwater pool etc.  Typical quarterly bill around $1100-1600.

Over a couple of years I did the halogen to LED swaps, installed roller shatters on western windows (also helped against hail storms), installed pergola/carport on northern side (shades most of the lower level rooms on that side).  Installed ceiling fans in all bedrooms and living areas (a bit of circulating air = big difference in comfort).  I had traditional yellow bats in the roof as insulation - but found the roof void still got extremely hot,  so on went 3 large whirly birds. But even though I lowered my consumption 30% my power bill stayed the same as the energy retailers increased prices >30%. 

Next, I bit the bullet and retro-insulated my roof and subfloor - using a Kingspan retroshield product (foil on both sides sandwiching 8mm of high density foam).  The shield is installed so as to leave an 80-100mm gap between the roof tiles  - the foil reflects 95-98% of heat before it gets in to the roof void. The foam does the rest of the insulation.  MASSIVE difference.  Even today with 38C outside the downstairs area is 20C. Upstairs warm 25C but tolerable - but we do not live upstairs during the day. The installation of the retro-shield is a B*ST*RD OF A JOB !  I vowed to my self I will never DIY again (7 full days in the roof and 5 full days subfloor) ... but it was worth it. 

By shielding the roof and the subfloor I pretty well have the house like an esky.  Wintertime heat stays in, summer time heat stays out.

This further dropped our energy consumption - but again all benefits were eaten up by the energy retailers jacking up prices.

So the last step for us for to take a serious look at this solar thing.  I agree with @GoingFishing unless you go in with some knowledge you will most likely get scammed.  

First thing to realise is that not all solar systems are equal.  Apart from the obvious high quality solar panel vs cheap panels consideration, there is a huge difference in performance  that comes from the design of how the panels are connected together and where and how the inverter technology is placed in the system. 

This article best summarised these points to me:  https://solaray.com.au/enphase-micro-inverters-vs-string-inverter-even-unshaded-roof/

Frankly the only way anyone got real value or payback on the older style single string (single inverter) systems given how they perform was with the crazy high FIT (feed in tariffs) that were being paid in the early days. These FITs are long gone from the energy retailer offerings. Which brings to mind that if you are considering a solar system your benefit is TIED to how your energy retailer treats you.  If you get the inferior solar set up (they are offered really cheap on TV and door to door) and stay with the wrong energy retailer - its a SCAM!

So my first step on the solar path was to look around at different energy retailers approaches to solar and secondly try and get a clear understanding of our household (4 working adults, 2 dogs) 24hr energy consumption - morning, day, evening, overnight.  (Remember you cant generate solar power during the night and my gut told me the battery technology was still not there...!)

I found my then current energy retailer (Origin) was completely focussed on lock in contracts armed with an array of unintelligible discount offerings - none of which I could assess as I had not clear idea of my consumption. I found a retailer (Mojo) who as part of the transition to them would install a smart meter which was accompanied by an App that fed back to me my household consumption by the hour for each 24 hour period. for the month, for the year etc.  The App also let me sample real time what my house hold consumption was - so if I manually turned on the pool pump I could see the increase in consumption for the pump. Similarly the patio heaters, the washing machine, dishwasher, ladies hairdryers, curling wands, bathroom heaters etc etc etc.  I figured it was worth swapping just to get an understanding of our energy usage pattern.

Over a few months I developed a profile of power use for the morning and evening peaks, the daytime and overnight. The App also converts these to $/c at the Mojo rates - Peak Load power is sold at Mojo whole sale buy price approx $0.26/kWh and offpeak at $0.13/kWh ... there is no uplift (so no discount offered).  Mojo also offer two solar FITs $0.20/kWh for the first 2000kwh (first 5kWh per day) and $0.10/kWh for the remainder.  

Since we do not have gas in the street, our overnight was dominated by  offpeak hot water (supplied at a cost of 13c/kwh), and the fridges and freezer and pool pump/chlorinator (supplied at a cost of 26.6c/kwh) ... remember just because it runs at night does not mean its offpeak - it has to be hard wired into the offpeak circuit to get the offpeak rate - and all these devices were not!  

I then figured out which devices I could move to run during prime daylight hours - without changing our lifestyle !!!  Moving devices such as the pool operation to run during the day was a dead easy process of changing the timer. Starting the family washing mid morning vs evening was an easy decision for us - most things have timers these days. 

All this helped me size our solar system so that all our peak load, heavy devices use was covered during the day.  I upped the size a bit to  generate a little extra that I could sell back to the grid to partially cover the overnight load which I could not change. eg generate 5kWh extra @ $0.20 = $1.00/day credit. 

So here are some numbers for our household : overnight it costs me about 7kw of hotwater off peak = $0.91.  The distributor activates the controlled load (off peak). I have no choice when they activate this but I have to buy this. The rest of our household TVs, LED lights, Fridges consumed $0.25/hr evening.... then dropped to $0.17/hr overnight  ... so 7hrs overnight = 7x 0.17 = $1.19. Plus offpeak = $2.10. Plus 2-3hrs TV say all up $2.50 each night.

We installed an 8.5kW micro inverter system in mid winter 2018  (26 panels, 26 micro inverters).  Each panel and inverter works independently and can be monitored independently. If one panel breaks,  I have lost 1/26th of my generation capacity etc.

At this stage I am yet to get a full years worth of data... but frankly I could not be happier.

We all know November was a very rainy month - not the best for solar production - heres my Nov report from Mojo App (this is the energy retailer report which takes into account offpeak costs)... infact my last three month bills have been $67, $69, $119 = $255/qtr.  A far cry from the $1600 previously.

Heres a sample from my Solar system control module... which cannot see offpeak ... it tracks energy consumed (orange), energy generated (blue) ....dark orange is purchased from grid (consumed)...you can see evening peak we started the oven etc., dark blue is exported to grid (sold)..... Light blue is solar generated that was used to service the light orange consumption.

So far my projection is that I am saving about $3-3500 pa.... on a cost of $13000.  So a 3-4yr payback.  For us it was an easy decision to make the the solar investment as we planned to stay at our place for the next 10+yrs. 

A few final comments on Batteries.

Yes we could install a 10kw battery (about $10000 today). This would handle our overnight load. But at best it would save us $2.50 per night. ... $10000/2.50 = 4000 nights = 10.95yr payback.  All battery systems today degrade - infact it is highly likely that we would have to replace the battery system during the 10yr period.  Franky I don't see a battery solution adding up fo us for some time.

At present, I'm leaning more toward adding a few more panels and generating a few more credits (use the grid and energy retailer as a ca$h battery) ... but I'll wait to see how I go for a full 12month cycle to get experience with all the seasonal variations. ... It would be good to see how much I can put into the ca$h battery over summer!

Anyway, it has turned out to be a very long post, I hope this helps at least set out that not all solar systems are the same, and you really need to get across your own usage pattern, and your energy retailer offerings to get the benefits.

Cheers Zoran

PS - a colleague of mine installed a nearly identical solar system as mine at the same time- guess who did the negotiation for both. He was with Origin for 3 months (offering a flat FIT 10c/kWh + with various discounts) and I was with Mojo. At the end of the quarter we compared our bills. He is now with Mojo. 

PPS - I DO NOT WORK FOR MOJO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

This is really interesting Zoran. I must say an app that shows your usage is very appealing. And the battery discussion is as I suspected. If you can get a 2:1 ROI after 10 years you would be happy with that. Me personally I’d want a projected ROI of at least 4:1 to accomodate any unforeseen variables (eg adverse government regulations or a hail storm insurance claim).

that retroshield product looks appealing I might price some up as a solution to winter draft through our subfloor. Though like you said it sounds like a bastard of a job rolling around under the house in the dirt and asbestos dust for 2+ days!

[zmk1962]

Well said Sam ... you have filled in many of the missing bits!  Thank you. 

Yup north facing roof is best, west is second best and you also need to consider the tilt of your roof relative to the path the sun travels across the sky...

My roof orientation is NOT perfectly ideal -- I lose about 1.7% efficiency - I could get that back by having each panel angled to perfectly face the sun's average seasonal path !  A credible installer will advise you of that !

As it stands this is the orientation of my system

Nth Array 1
Tilt: 23.0°
Azimuth: 24°

Nth Array 2
Tilt: 23.0°
Azimuth: 24°

West Array
Tilt: 23.0°
Azimuth: 294°
 

Excellent point re warranties (make sure that your payback period is WELL within your warranties !)

• panels warranty 25yr
• inverter warranty 10yr
• monitoring - 10yrs included in installation cost

Finally... if you don't do your homework you will lean to buy cheap and it will most likely be a scam ! 

Cheers Zoran

[mrsswordfisherman]

This is a very good thread and one I will read thoroughly later. 

Solar panels - biggest scam we all got drawn into. 

Looking to change from Origin to AGL soon. Doing research now. 

[zmk1962]

1 hour ago, flatheadluke said:

or a hail storm insurance claim

Hi Luke, I check my insurance situation prior to installing the solar.  

I'm with NRMA, the installed solar panels fall under my "building  fixtures" definition and are assumed to be included in the total value insured - just like a satellite dish would be or TV antenna or roller door or whirly bird(s). So no extra insurance steps required. ...and like with everything there is just  the basic excess to pay per claim.

Cheers Zoran

[Welster]

I checked my panels after the hail and they were fine but the hail was much bigger a few kms away.

Funny thing about my recent gas bills.   Two quarters ago the bill was very big compared to normal and they actually called asking if I wanted the meter reread to check.   I said don’t worry.   In the most recent bill the error was corrected resulting in a credit invoice, but they still charged me $1.98 for a credit card processing fee!   It’s not like I’m going to spend 1/2 hour on the phone to have it corrected though. 

[Rebel]

Hi All,

Thank you for your in put. I had no idea about solar panels, but I do now thanks to you. I am with Energy Australia have been for over thirty years, couldn't be happier with their pricing and their servicing. I have solar hot water, had it for about thirteen years, yes it saves money. We also have gas so I run a gas heater in winter and sometimes a log fire on the weekends. We have air conditioners and that is the only time the bill starts to rise. I give Energy Australia a nudge every twelve months asking for a better deal. Over the years they have been very good with their discounts. I believe if you stay with one company they will look after you.

[zmk1962]

2 hours ago, Rebel said:

I believe if you stay with one company they will look after you.

Sadly that has not been my experience. I have been with many companies for 30-40yrs (NRMA, NAB, Telstra, Origin, Medibank, Qantas etc etc)... often with decades of business across multiple simultaneous contracts..... yet the deal they are prepared to offer an existing customer is rarely if ever as good as the deal they offer to a new customer.  They offer you the minimum to keep you being brand loyal and to stop you taking a serious look around - they know it takes time and effort on your behalf to change suppliers and they are relying on that - as you say all they have to do is to make you "believe" they are looking after you.  They are exploiting basic well understood consumer behaviour.

Do the hard maths or put them to the test - ask for that very special offer you see in a pamphlet or advertisement - and they very quickly tell you that "promotion" is not available to an existing customer.  How is that rewarding your loyalty?

Don't get me wrong, there are other ways than "best price" that companies can look after you ... often after being with a company for a while you are familiar with their processes and may actually prefer how they get things done - that may have value to me as a consumer that I am willing to pay for over an above the cheapest price. But it is a conscious decision that I have made because I have compared them with an alternate, vs just relying on them looking after me because of brand loyalty. Also as technology evolves, many old processes can be rationalised and if I or my suppliers are not keeping up - then ultimately I will end up paying more than I should --  as in the case of Origin being unable to give me any insight into my energy consumption.

In the end it always a case of caveat emptor  (let the buyer beware).

Cheers Zoran

 

[zmk1962]

18 hours ago, mrsswordfisherman said:

Solar panels - biggest scam we all got drawn into. 

There's a lot to it for sure Donna, but its working for me - my $1600 quarterly bills are down to $255 last quarter, around $350 during the winter quarter. 

But as Sam and I have laid out above it has taken a lot of research and understanding to get the right outcome and to avoid being scammed.

BTW, regarding scammers - heres a story from last week. I was working from home, there's a knock at the door. A young chap is there with a clipboard. In an excited voice he asks me have I heard about solar because it's a great thing and they are offering a zero dollars down, no out of pocket solar installation service !  I stopped him and asked him has he looked at my roof before he walked down the driveway?  Ooops - so he changes tact. Hey are you happy with your solar. Yes I am very happy. Thank you. Goodbye. 

Next day I get a call from my wife, saying our neighbour has approached her about our solar, as yesterday a guy walked up to their door and said I was very happy with the solar system THEY HAD INSTALLED and I was recommending them. So our neighbour was waiting for this guy to return with the contracts - and just on the spur of the moment while waiting he thought he should check with us !!!  Sound the alarm bells!   I managed to STOP him signing and asked that he keep the contract for consideration ... guess what - they would not leave the contract with him!

.... now thats a solar SCAMMER !   No wonder the industry has got such a bad wrap.

Cheers Zoran

Edited December 30, 2018 by zmk1962

[Rebel]

Hi ZMK1962,

You have talked me out of solar panels. When I want something I research, be it Insurance, Power bills etc. I am mean. I fight for the last cent. When my Insurance company tried to raise the rates this year,I told them I am moving on, they changed their mind very quickly. Same with my power company, put up or I will move on. Companies do not like losing loyal customers, why because loyal customers tell everybody they have been dudded

Edited December 30, 2018 by Rebel
Stuffed up.

[zmk1962]

27 minutes ago, Rebel said:

When my Insurance company tried to raise the rates this year,I told them I am moving on, they changed their mind very quickly. Same with my company, put up or I will move on.

Well thats what I meant... thats not them looking after a loyal customer -- that's you looking after yourself !!!  They are just responding.

BTW, I didn’t mean to talk you out of solar! But it only works in certain situations. 

Cheers Z

Edited December 30, 2018 by zmk1962