Fisheries and their role in locking Us out

[PaddyT]

Hi guys, we all need to be aware of this one , some guys in the Stop the Lockout group have spent there own coin getting Freedom of Information and meetings arranged with the DPI to find out this stuff.The green element of DPI are verging on conspiratorial behaviour to get their own agenda forced into legislation-have a look at this link-https://www.beagleweekly.com.au/single-post/2019/01/13/Do-we-have-a-NSW-DPI-Green-Goblin?fbclid=IwAR0_KvlOAyX3z1N7rmZGHSPSVTUvpbVl4sE2uZTaVDRiK4IlzNiLyzH3owY

[big Neil]

G'day PaddyT. I have just read the entire link and thank you for posting it. I would encourage ALL FISHRAIDERS to read it and to form their own opinion, prior to their visit to the polling station this year.

There is a lot of jargon in the article which I don't understand but the one thing which stuck in my mind was " if you feed in the right BS, you will get the expected BS result". That is an obvious statement which I do understand.

If we assume that the content of the article is accurate there has to be an inquiry into the "accusation" that the Dept has a hidden agenda and is striving to implement that agenda. At the back of my mind, I keep asking myself "why?"

Why would people employed to do a particular job wish to direct (collectively) policies aimed at preventing everyday folk from their chosen recreation (fishing)? Extending that thought to my major concern (the MDBA plan)...surely pollies are not intentionally withholding water supply to engineer massive fish kills, and hence prevent people from freshwater recreational fishing.

The biggest problem which I see is that, come election time, how important is this one issue to most people, to affect their decision at the polling booth?

I believe that politics is dirty...just how dirty? The mind boggles. bn

[Sea Ranger]

A long but interesting read.  It does make a lot of assumptions that should be taken at just that.   

[mrsswordfisherman]

I found it very difficult to follow and question some of the claims.

[PaddyT]

More on this subject from Fishing World-http://www.fishingworld.com.au/news/opinion-zero-transparency-zero-trust-in-ongoing-nsw-marine-park-debate?fbclid=IwAR29jDI4BOW07CkU452KAqvqkxO7pRAXgGnaktaBG2YMjIw2gt9tDBMpKtQ#hgZBHizL64GTFEPS.01

 

Essentially there are folk within fisheries who dont want rec fishos to have a say (in fact any say) in the way fisheries anre run and when and where lockouts will occur. They are hiding behind "data gathering" programs without revealing how or why this data is accumulated. these anti fishos have the ear of the minister and are mighty pissed off that they didnt get the Marine Park through and will continue to do anything they can to undermine our stake in all of this. The Lockout battle is NOT OVER- it has barely begun

[GoingFishing]

The notion that government agencies (or politicians) conspire with each other to acheive an outcome is not just a rumor.

Having worked with governement on delivery of their projects for the last 10 years i can tell you that funding allocation, policy, strategy all filters down from the top.

The low level employees of fisheries probably had nothing to do with the inception of the marine park. But there is a valid question, who came up with the idea, why did the minister support its progression ? 

In a political climate that is so sensitive, politicians are holding onto their independant allies to keep a majority government. It is not inconceivable at all that the current government would implement strategy and policy under pressure from their allies in order to keep their favor, and in turn, keep a majority government.

Take it from me, i have managed projects which were weeks away from delivery only to then have the entire project canned under a policy or strategy change (along with tremendous financial loss of expended tax payer dollars ).....and when you ask why ? "Thats the ministers comittment at this time"

Edited January 17, 2019 by GoingFishing

[masterfisho7]

I read it leaving my up in the air

[kingfishbig]

The Sydney marine park was a political initiative, so I think the writer is putting the cart before the horse. The DPI was just doing what it was told. And it was politics that stopped it when the government saw the backlash it created.

[PaddyT]

The stopping (temporary or otherwise)of the Sydney marine park is a good thing, but we need to remain vigilant. The situation in NSW is that it cost money to get a Freedom of Information (called a GIPA) and their are guys out there trying to get to the bottom of all of this. (and good on them), as I said before DONT think this is over, think very carefully about your vote in March and your way of life and your freedoms. Governments instincts these days (of all persuassions) are to create more laws (whether we need them or not), and they are lazy and unwilling to spend money on frontline services-so this pans out in Fisheries management as "oh this fishery has too much pressure, oh shall we get more inspectors into it to enforce the rules we already have?- Answer is no- lets just create a new rule and lock everyone or one sector -usually recs but the pros have been hammered too- out of that fishery- its lazy, incompetent management not a conspirecy (hopefully anyway) BUT the pollies need their backsides kicked very very hard over this.

[kingfishbig]

19 minutes ago, PaddyT said:

The stopping (temporary or otherwise)of the Sydney marine park is a good thing, but we need to remain vigilant. The situation in NSW is that it cost money to get a Freedom of Information (called a GIPA) and their are guys out there trying to get to the bottom of all of this. (and good on them), as I said before DONT think this is over, think very carefully about your vote in March and your way of life and your freedoms. Governments instincts these days (of all persuassions) are to create more laws (whether we need them or not), and they are lazy and unwilling to spend money on frontline services-so this pans out in Fisheries management as "oh this fishery has too much pressure, oh shall we get more inspectors into it to enforce the rules we already have?- Answer is no- lets just create a new rule and lock everyone or one sector -usually recs but the pros have been hammered too- out of that fishery- its lazy, incompetent management not a conspirecy (hopefully anyway) BUT the pollies need their backsides kicked very very hard over this.

Actually it is marine parks that are not cost effective with the expense of pro buy outs, expensive enforcement such as patrols and aerial surveillance, administration (bureaucratic empire building). In contrast is costs practically nothing to adjust traditional methods.

[JonD]

We have marine parks down here which haven't really made any difference to me as a rec angler. The areas of complet protection are small and in all honesty and places I never fished before they were introduced. The areas which stopped trawlers are unquestionably better for flathead.

The term marine park often has people believing that you can't fish within them, where mostly this only accounts for a very small part of the marine park. Unfortunately the pro led liners and trappers weren't stopped like the trawl boats from using them.

I honestly believe our recreational catch has fallen greatly over the 12 years since the implication of our marine parks here on the south for most species.. My belief is this is from the far greater impact of trapping and rec anglers now fishing here. 10 years ago we would see 5-6 boats on a comp weekend fishing the snapper grounds and snapper were almost guaranteed. Over the last few years you could quite easely count 50-60 boats, as well as 30+ fishtrap floats. This last snapper season I've often been the only boat willing to try, still heaps of traps but pretty much 0 snapper. My seasonal count being bellow 5, with these being small fish ( you've seen from my reports I've been getting out there).

 

I have dived some of the inshore complete no go areas, where I found a stark contrast from the areas open to fishing. Unfotunately these fish don't seem to be in big enough numbers to spill over but still good to actually see healthy schools of fish.

 

[big Neil]

11 hours ago, PaddyT said:

More on this subject from Fishing World-http://www.fishingworld.com.au/news/opinion-zero-transparency-zero-trust-in-ongoing-nsw-marine-park-debate?fbclid=IwAR29jDI4BOW07CkU452KAqvqkxO7pRAXgGnaktaBG2YMjIw2gt9tDBMpKtQ#hgZBHizL64GTFEPS.01

 

Essentially there are folk within fisheries who dont want rec fishos to have a say (in fact any say) in the way fisheries anre run and when and where lockouts will occur. They are hiding behind "data gathering" programs without revealing how or why this data is accumulated. these anti fishos have the ear of the minister and are mighty pissed off that they didnt get the Marine Park through and will continue to do anything they can to undermine our stake in all of this. The Lockout battle is NOT OVER- it has barely begun

That I CAN BELIEVE PaddyT. Manipulators from the inside! Let's hope they keep getting pissed off at things they fail to accomplish. Cheers, bn

[kingie chaser]

2 hours ago, JonD said:

We have marine parks down here which haven't really made any difference to me as a rec angler. The areas of complet protection are small and in all honesty and places I never fished before they were introduced. 

 

If these marine parks didn't affect you because maybe you have a large ocean going boat, how did they affect other anglers who have smaller boats & rely on fishing estuaries or bay areas??

All well & good to say 'it doesn't affect me' but we all don't have mega bucks to be able to go anywhere we want outside of some of these areas!

Just saying!!

 

This is why we all need to be on a combined effort to preserve our rights!

Edited January 18, 2019 by kingie chaser

[JonD]

2 hours ago, kingie chaser said:

If these marine parks didn't affect you because maybe you have a large ocean going boat, how did they affect other anglers who have smaller boats & rely on fishing estuaries or bay areas??

All well & good to say 'it doesn't affect me' but we all don't have mega bucks to be able to go anywhere we want outside of some of these areas!

Just saying!!

 

This is why we all need to be on a combined effort to preserve our rights!

 

We don't have mega bucks or a big boat, simply a 5m rib where our family have been willing to make sacrifices to own. A net income of $50,000 to raise a family with three kids is no easy task.

i don't just fish offshore, infact most of our fishing is either from the shore, estuaries and river. The marine park estuaries fish better since removing comercial netters, the very small areas of sanctuarys are once again very small and areas few ever bothered with. Part of the improvement for us though has come from learning more about the target species and techniques to catch them. Seals may be having an effect in the local estuaries but they have just as much right as us to hunt there.

Can I ask if you have ever fished the marine park area down here and if so which areashave effected you?

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by JonD

[Sea Ranger]

Jon you and your daughters put most of us to shame mate.   Great catch there.

[kingie chaser]

That's a massive Taylor 

No I haven't fished down your way Jon, my response was merely to point out that marine parks may not have affect you catching fish but these lock outs will potentially affect someone else's ability to be able to fish at all if they don't have a larger sea worthy boat.

[PaddyT]

14 hours ago, JonD said:

 

We don't have mega bucks or a big boat, simply a 5m rib where our family have been willing to make sacrifices to own. A net income of $50,000 to raise a family with three kids is no easy task.

i don't just fish offshore, infact most of our fishing is either from the shore, estuaries and river. The marine park estuaries fish better since removing comercial netters, the very small areas of sanctuarys are once again very small and areas few ever bothered with. Part of the improvement for us though has come from learning more about the target species and techniques to catch them. Seals may be having an effect in the local estuaries but they have just as much right as us to hunt there.

Can I ask if you have ever fished the marine park area down here and if so which areashave effected you?

 

Hi Jon, i havent fished down your way since the late 1990's but i can remember fishing at the island in packs of 100+ boats so i dont think thats changed much, probably some year to year  variance on visitor numbers. I can remember watching a ron Calcutt movie about the famous Narooma Sportsfishing Convention back in the 70's and there were over a hundred boats parked out at the island in one scene. Certainly unrestricted amateur pressure can cause localised depletion but other things cause change too- i dont and never will see the value of drawing arbitrary lines on a map and saying -"no fishing" it makes no sense to me, I would see the value in "rolling temporary sanctuary zones" and closed seasons in certain areas as well as for certain species- we do this for an imported feral spotted fish- why dont we do this for spawning mullet? (just to be controversial). lockouts to me are a lazy management tool. It needs a rethink.

[JonD]

1 hour ago, PaddyT said:

Hi Jon, i havent fished down your way since the late 1990's but i can remember fishing at the island in packs of 100+ boats so i dont think thats changed much, probably some year to year  variance on visitor numbers. I can remember watching a ron Calcutt movie about the famous Narooma Sportsfishing Convention back in the 70's and there were over a hundred boats parked out at the island in one scene. Certainly unrestricted amateur pressure can cause localised depletion but other things cause change too- i dont and never will see the value of drawing arbitrary lines on a map and saying -"no fishing" it makes no sense to me, I would see the value in "rolling temporary sanctuary zones" and closed seasons in certain areas as well as for certain species- we do this for an imported feral spotted fish- why dont we do this for spawning mullet? (just to be controversial). lockouts to me are a lazy management tool. It needs a rethink.

Those days you mention were for the big game fishing convention which was a huge draw card for the comp weekend back then. Numerous boats hooked into big yellowfin at Montague were a common sight, now just the odd fish much further offshore landed by the rare few. Unfortunately that comp has dwindled down to a point you wouldn't know it was on anymore. Those few that do still fish it mostly target flathead due to the line class gives them a far greater chance of getting into the big prizes.

My daughter has been doing survey work during the game comps down here where the organisers state entries are a fraction of what they once were, just like the catches or tagged fish.

What is big are the flathead comps in the estuaries, which turns out hundreds of anglers from far and wide. The estuaries are part of the marine park and have no go areas but have increased in popularity for tournaments.

Tottaly agree on closed seasons on species but this doesn't always work that well either. Having worked on trawlers, having certain species out of season meant dumping dead fish over the side of the boat. Set lines, traps and even rod and line fishing isn't selective, so not quite sure how fish from deep water might fair in comparison to releasing bass or trout. 

[PaddyT]

Jon, all of what you say above is true, Im sure you are aware of the disputes Iceland has with the EU over fisheries regulations-they dont allow dumpbacks from commercial boats- it all goes to market as part of a total quota,and the undersized/rubbish fish are all sold and utilised- the fisheries around Iceland are doing very well because of it, around the rest of the EU-not so well. Its certainly been a long time since the last inshore yellowfin run but they all get smashed up in the central pacific by the massive purse seiners - I would also offer that even striped tuna are no where near as common these days as they where when i was a young bloke- the schools in August/Sept off Sydeny and the central coast where massive- as far as the eye could see- all in cans and petfood these days.The closed seasons could include bans on locations as well as species- that would stop a lot of bycatch.

[kingfishbig]

This article makes the case that the Batemans Bay marine park has had quite a negative impact on local business. Hardly surprising when fishing (both recreational and commercial) keeps a lot of these towns afloat:

 

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Death-of-a-town--Marine-Parks-place-tourism-and-business-in-jeopardy/-104317?source=google.au

[savit]

On 1/19/2019 at 12:14 PM, PaddyT said:

Jon, all of what you say above is true, Im sure you are aware of the disputes Iceland has with the EU over fisheries regulations-they dont allow dumpbacks from commercial boats- it all goes to market as part of a total quota,and the undersized/rubbish fish are all sold and utilised- the fisheries around Iceland are doing very well because of it, around the rest of the EU-not so well.

Interesting .

That explains why I saw  once commercial boat unloading a dead seal besides fish - not sure though how they were going to sell it.

It took me only 15 min ( just to prepare flyfish gear) before I met 2 fisheries officers to check the gear and license.

[JonD]

2 hours ago, kingfishbig said:

This article makes the case that the Batemans Bay marine park has had quite a negative impact on local business. Hardly surprising when fishing (both recreational and commercial) keeps a lot of these towns afloat:

 

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Death-of-a-town--Marine-Parks-place-tourism-and-business-in-jeopardy/-104317?source=google.au

There's one or two hell bent on making up stories that are simply not true. Over the last 12 years of the marine park being in place there have been around 10 new charter operators start up buisness here ( Narooma )the one making the negative spin was already here but now gets a smaller cut of the pie mostly because of attitude.

Before anyone starts believing stories written to the papers by what's basically two people, try contacting the Eurobodalla tourism. Accomodation buisness have simply gone from strength to strength ( contact the local chamber of commerce to back this fact up ). 

Eco tourisum has gone rediculus, which was once the domain of one ( the one who does all the complaining) charters are now shared by 7 boats carrying 20+ divers and snorkelers. There are also several boats now doing night penguin tours.

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by JonD

[kingfishbig]

17 minutes ago, JonD said:

There's one or two hell bent on making up stories that are simply not true. Over the last 12 years of the marine park being in place there have been around 10 new charter operators start up buisness here ( Narooma )the one making the negative spin was already here but now gets a smaller cut of the pie mostly because of attitude.

Before anyone starts believing stories written to the papers by what's basically two people, try contacting the Eurobodalla tourism. Accomodation buisness have simply gone from strength to strength ( contact the local chamber of commerce to back this fact up ). 

Eco tourisum has gone rediculus, which was once the domain of one ( the one who does all the complaining) charters are now shared by 7 boats carrying 20+ divers and snorkelers. There are also several boats now doing night penguin tours.

 

But dive charters and tourism would have risen anyway without the marine park, for one thing with the growing population . Ie it's hardly surprising that a sea change destination relatively close to Sydney has seen a rise in tourism over 12 years. That doesn't take away the fact there has been a considerable economic fallout from the park.

PS: A government survey showed an 80% drop in angling participation after the Jervis Bay marine park was established. 

[JonD]

On 1/24/2019 at 5:30 PM, kingfishbig said:

But dive charters and tourism would have risen anyway without the marine park, for one thing with the growing population . Ie it's hardly surprising that a sea change destination relatively close to Sydney has seen a rise in tourism over 12 years. That doesn't take away the fact there has been a considerable economic fallout from the park.

PS: A government survey showed an 80% drop in angling participation after the Jervis Bay marine park was established. 

 

Firstly I'm not in support of marine parks, just simply being truthful about my own observations living and fishing in the middle of one. 

Its not only the increase in Eco tours but fishing charters too. Tourisum have also greatly promoted fishing locally, which seems to of increased rec anglers greatly in my opinion. Conventions such as the Narooma game fishing weekend have gradually dropped in popularity like many other big game conventions around the country, which is more to do with lack of quality fish, there are no santuaries further offshore down here.

The 80% reduction in anglers to the JB marine park really amazes me as this is an area I've simply given up on because I can never find parking each time I've towed the boat there.  I would of thought with an 80% reduction this should have some kind of impact on more trailer boat parking.

With sloppy offshore conditions locally today I was quite surprised by our local boat ramp parking being mostly full on sunrise this morning. A few marlin soon bring boats from far and wide.