New steering cable and helm stiff?!

[AP3]

Hi Everyone!

 

First a confession; I'm from the UK, and my only fishing is done with a magnet, but the Aus forums seem a lot more clued up on boat stuff than the UK ones.

I had a lot of play in my old Teleflex steering cable, but otherwise it turned fine, but I changed it to try and get rid of the play, as I also had now idea on the age of the cable.

• I changed both the cable and rotary helm for new.
• I reamed out the tilt tube prior to installing the new cable with a wire brush on a drill, and I greased the new cable with white lithium grease.
• I greased the pivot tube, and tilt tube grease nipples until new grease was squeezing out.

But, I have a weird problem!

With the drag link disconnected, the steering turns as smooth as butter, and the cable slides in and out effortlessly. Also, the outboard happily flops easily from lock to lock.

However, with the drag link connected, the steering is very stiff, particularly to starboard! I can't think of anything I haven't done to ensure smooth steering.

The drag link is the right one for the engine, and isn't bent weirdly. The cable isn't bent beyond Teleflex's prescribed limits.

Any clue what my issue could be? It's driving me nuts!

Cheers,

Andy

[noelm]

The really obvious first, does the motor turn free with the drag link disconnected? is the steering free while stopped?

[noelm]

Oops, I just reread and noted the motor does move free.

[frankS]

Only thing I can think of at the moment is the drag link could be set too close to the motor not giving it enough angle to push pull freely, set the drag link further out from where it connects to the motor a inch or so towards the front of the boat, if that makes sense . There should be adjustment holes on the connection.

Frank

Edited March 15, 2019 by frankS

[Nolongeramember]

Was the old cable turning smooth/ freely in the same mounting position?

If all those things check out as being smooth as you say, I think you have either a faulty or cheaply made cable or rotary helm. It seems like as soon as you put some pressure on it, it becomes stiff.

Could also be the wrong ratio at the rotary helm. Is the gear pattern/ ratio the same as your old one? 

[AP3]

@Frank, there are no adjustment holes, just a hole at each end.

@Hateanchors,  all was well before, except for the free play. Are there different ratios?  The helm/cable are identical to before??

[rickmarlin62]

Is the replacement cable the same length as original  if longer it may be kinking out and making it tight as too sharper angle to run freely

[dunc333]

 hi mate what brand motor hp etc some pics of set up might help to

[AP3]

@Rick, it's the same length as the old. There only bends at the helm and motor, and neither are sharper than the diameter specified by Telefex.

 

@Dunc, it's a 1990 Suzuki DT40C on an old dory. Pic attached!

I'm really scratching my head on this one. I don't think that hydraulic steering is an (easy) option, given the transom cutout length, and also the screw clamps for the outboard. (I guess these could be cut off, and bolts used instead)

[rickmarlin62]

Got me stumped  fitted my new one today  all good

[AP3]

I'm starting to think I didn't ream out the tilt tube enough, or it's just overly corroded, as I'm getting brown gunk coming out on the steering cable.

Doesn't explain why it's easy to move with the drag link disconnected, but there is some play in the cable going through the tilt tube, which I'm not sure is normal?

[frankS]

Andy. Could you send a photo of the front of the motor where the drag link connects to the motor, not too close a shot so we could have a good look at your set up. I'm pretty well convinced that the drag link is too close to the motor, OR you have the nuts too tight.

God I wish I was there in person to help you, what part of the UK are you at ?.

Frank

[AP3]

Hi Frank,

I went out and took a bunch of photos, hopefully this link will work: https://imgur.com/a/06JfzDC

There is a second hole in the mount on the outboard that takes the drag link, slightly further away. You think this might be the problem? I've tried loosening the nylocs on both ends of the drag link, and it didn't help.

I'm in the southeast of the UK, near Marlow, Bucks. Home to huge river boats, expensive marinas, and even more expensive marine mechanics! Boats are seen as a bit of a luxury here. 😕

Cheers,

Andy

[zmk1962]

Hi Andy,

It seems to me that the tiller bracket is mounted toward the motor and that would significantly reduce the leverage you have on the motor.  It seems the angles would also be inclined to lock up. 

If you flipped that toward the bow and attached your drag link to the forward hole it would give you max leverage (and hence require least force on the Telefex).  I think Frank implied something like this in an earlier post. 

See if this picture makes sense:

Cheers Zoran

[frankS]

Yes this is what I was trying to explain in my earlier comments , only thing that I could think of that would be the problem.

Frank

[AP3]

Thanks for the replies guys, and your excellent drawing Zoran!

Looking at the exploded diagram for this motor though, it does look like it's supposed to be mounted the way it is: https://www.brownspoint.com/store/pc/BP_AP_AssemblyDetail.asp?ID=6394

I could try the other threaded hole, but from what I've been able to figure out, I think that one's for linking up another motor.

Cheers,

Andy

[noelm]

Something completely unrelated, and I could be wrong, it might just be the angle when the photo was taken, but, is that a long shaft outboard on a short shaft transom?

[frankS]

Andy. I believe if you turn that bracket around the other way like in Zoran's drawing your troubles will be rectified. Never seen that bracket facing inward on any boat motor I have even owned OR seen , and I have seen a few.

Noel shaft length is OK.

Frank

[frankS]

Andy. I remember driving through your town, I remember the bridge that goes over the river reminded me of Conwy Wales. Delightful part of the world.

Frank

[zmk1962]

43 minutes ago, frankS said:

Andy. I believe if you turn that bracket around the other way like in Zoran's drawing your troubles will be rectified.

I'm pretty sure it will solve it as well.  But have been thinking about the exploded diagram that Andy sent through and Andy's comment  .....

9 hours ago, AP3 said:

I could try the other threaded hole, but from what I've been able to figure out, I think that one's for linking up another motor.

I actually think the hole closest to the motor is the tandem link for a dual motor outboard. I have drawn a sketch below.
 

Connecting in this way, still increases the leverage and gives a better angle between the Telfex and pivot point.

So as a first step Andy, perhaps just move the drag link to the hole closest to the bow of the boat. 

Cheers Zoran

[Nolongeramember]

1 hour ago, frankS said:

Andy. I believe if you turn that bracket around the other way like in Zoran's drawing your troubles will be rectified. Never seen that bracket facing inward on any boat motor I have even owned OR seen , and I have seen a few.

Noel shaft length is OK.

Frank

I agree it will make the steering easier due to the extra leverage, but one thing that might be an issue is the throw of the arm will be increased to turn the motor.  He might not have full lock side to side in the other hole. 

Also, it doesn’t explain why the steering was totally fine with the current setup and the original cable. There must be something else going on. 

[zmk1962]

59 minutes ago, Hateanchors said:

I agree it will make the steering easier due to the extra leverage, but one thing that might be an issue is the throw of the arm will be increased to turn the motor.  He might not have full lock side to side in the other hole. 

Yup... moving the linkage further out will be a compromise on the rotation no doubt. 

1 hour ago, Hateanchors said:

Also, it doesn’t explain why the steering was totally fine with the current setup and the original cable. There must be something else going on. 

I thought about that as well... but in the first post Andy said there was a lot of play in the original set up. Maybe when new it was also stiff and forcing the movement created the extra play he was trying to elimnate. Also when Andy said " but I changed it to try and get rid of the play" we don't know if he also changed to use the rear hole. Without seeing the boat or a video of the linkage movements we're all just making educated guesses at this stage. 

I welded up a coupling link between my 200hp and 15hp (different heights, different turn circle, different tilt pivot angles) and I'm relying on the experience working out that geometry conundrum. Two mech's I went to said it couldn't be done - but I got it working - even though it looks like a bit of a frankenstein. 

Cheers Zoran

[frankS]

Just for my own satisfaction curiosity I went out to my boat and changed the drag link to outward position to directly onto the grab handle part of the outboard ( for want of better word ) . There was only a slight tightness of the steering and I could live with this. I than set the drag link to the inner section as in Andy's photo and I had to manually wobble to motor back and forth before the steering would take place, once the steering began to move it seem OK but initially it was pretty well locked so that it would not be safe.

It's up to Andy if he wants to do this adjustment or not, but I am pretty convinced that his steering drag link should be forward of the motor.

Frank

[Nolongeramember]

As I read it, the only thing he has changed is the cable and the rotory helm. It was smooth before this. 

A few other ideas to check. Andy, check the end of the steering cable where it goes in and out of the motor tube is not rubbing against the inside of the motor tube or something else when it’s connected.  

Check the new rotory helm and new cable are compatible with their gears or however they interact with each other. 

Is it still stiff when everything is connected and you try to turn the steering by pulling the motor?

Is there any kind of tension or pressure on the cable end when connecting up the drag link?

Disconnect things one by one until you find the culprit. The helm rotor, lay the cable straight across the boat and try and turn the motor etc. 

My guess is still one of the new parts has a fault with it. 

Edit, check the drag link/ cable end connection is not binding. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Hateanchors

[zmk1962]

53 minutes ago, frankS said:

I went out to my boat and changed the drag link to outward position to directly onto the grab handle part of the outboard ( for want of better word ) . There was only a slight tightness of the steering and I could live with this. I than set the drag link to the inner section as in Andy's photo and I had to manually wobble to motor back and forth before the steering would take place, once the steering began to move it seem OK but initially it was pretty well locked so that it would not be safe.

You're a real trooper Frank ... not many people would go and do a test like that... A+ effort.  As I said above, maybe when the original set up was new it was also stiff and forcing the movement created the extra play he was trying to eliminate.

@Hateanchors, thats not taking anything away from what your suggesting. It does come down to what Andy means by it was turning "fine".  "Fine" is a subjective term. Also, what caused the original excessive play is an underlying question. Anyway, we've certainly given Andy plenty to look at, lets see what he comes back with. 

Cheers Z