garfield28

Electrical problem

Recommended Posts

G'day all,

 

I have just neatened up the wiring in my boat as it was long over due and also replaced a heap of copper wire that was corroded and not tinned for marine use. 

So finished the job up yesterday and looks grouse compared to how it looked before, I also now have the piece of mind that all wiring in my boat is now tinned copper wire and not corroded.

So with everything now wired to a fuse block, and also fused switches the moment of truth was to connect the batteries back up and test all of the gadgets were working. With fingers and toes crossed much to my delight everything worked fine except for my stereo. All of my cabin lights, nav lights, bilge etc are wired through a fused switch panel and all of that works great, other things like the stereo, my marine radios are wired directly into and out of the fuse block and all that is connected works fine except my radio. So I looked to see if I blew a fuse while doing the job on the stereo, but the fuse is fine and all wires appear to be all good too.

I have a dual battery set up and I have one brand new marine battery (a couple of weeks old) that has barely even been used, so I switched the switch to battery 1 and stereo indicates no power as there is no flashing LCD screen. Switch to battery 2 and same thing no power indicated on the LCD. I switched it to both and the stereo was flashing the time on the LCD screen and started working no problems. While the music was blaring I switched the battery to 1 again and it turned off straight away, same as when I switched it to battery 2 while using it no problems with the switch turned to both.

Would anyone with some electrical knowledge be able to please tell me what it might be? I'd love to know why it won't work on either battery being used single, but works when the batteries are both on together. 

Very confused, and would appreciate and ideas as to why this might be happening. 

Thanks 

Geoff 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Got a multimeter? Measure the voltage on the radio terminals on each battery setting.

From what you’ve said above, as everything adjacent on the fuse block is working could be both batteries could be weak. 

What’s the radio earthed to?

Edited by raging
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

mate thats fu  k g weird . is the radio coming off the bus .to me sounds like a radio issue if everything working or your battery switch set up is crossed (setup wrong) check you are getting 12 volt at radio not 24 v  with multi meter.if your game sometimes try putting neg radio wire to pos and pos to neg bus worst it will do is blow fuse ,sometimes with led lights i find this the case

 

cheers dunc333

Edited by dunc333
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes i understand do you have a multimeter

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, raging said:

Got a multimeter? Measure the voltage on the radio terminals on each battery setting.

From what you’ve said above, as everything adjacent on the fuse block is working could be both batteries could be weak. 

What’s the radio earthed to?

Hey mate, cheers for the reply. 

 

Yeah the weird thing is that I can turn on my nav lights, my cabin lights and also my bilge and live bait bilge all at the same time and there was no dramas with the batteries in that sense... but I'll definitely give that a crack though. 

The neutral wire is connected to the negative part of the fuse block mate. 

4 minutes ago, dunc333 said:

mate thats fu  k g weird . is the radio coming off the bus .to me sounds like a radio issue if everything working or your battery switch set up is crossed (setup wrong) check you are getting 12 volt a radio not 24 v  with multi meter

cheers dunc333

Yeah sure is mate. Yeah I'll whack the multi meter on it tomorrow when I get home. 

I read the book that came with the stereo and it says operating power required is 13.8v not sure if that changes anything though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You won’t get that sort of voltage unless the engine is running. What stereo is it? 

Does the stereo work on one battery while your motor is running(flushing etc)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

it should be good on the 12v circut you have its just a trial of ilimitaiton to you find the fault

 

Edited by dunc333
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, raging said:

You won’t get that sort of voltage unless the engine is running. What stereo is it? 

Does the stereo work on one battery while your motor is running(flushing etc)

Mate its actually this one from Jaycar https://www.jaycar.com.au/marine-am-fm-radio-with-mp3-player/p/QM3815

I haven't tried it on one battery while running, but surely they wouldn't only operate on 2 batteries running at the same time would it? 

5 minutes ago, dunc333 said:

it should be good on the 12v circut you have its just a trial of limitaion to you find the fault

 

I hope so, I don't want to have to have it running on 2 batteries only

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, garfield28 said:

 

I hope so, I don't want to have to have it running on 2 batteries only

Nah you’ll get it running off one, something is amiss 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

brand of radio as raging said please to help vy keyboard

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, dunc333 said:

brand of radio as raging said please to help vy keyboard

 

“Response precision” - my Google fu couldn’t find an online manual for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What are the voltages on each of the batteries.

You may not be getting the required voltage from one battery alone.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Geoff and HEY RAIDERS - apologies it's been a long time between posts for me - work / life  have kept me way too busy .... Sam called out to me in on this one so here's my attempt.

Geoff, from what you describe I suspect you have at least two problems in the wiring. 

As background information, radios are prone to static from running motors, bilge pumps etc and one way of minimising that is to separate radio wiring from the other stuff by hard wiring the radio positive and negative supply directly to the  battery terminals. So if you previously had only one battery it may have been wired that way especially if there was no suppressor installed in the circuit. If you then replaced your circuit wire for wire, but introduced another battery and the battery switch, you may well have ended up with the radio positive attached to one battery and with no negative wire  connection from the radio back to that same battery.

Let my try and explain with the diagram below which shows a typical 2 battery wiring set up:

image.png.23cf5895fdfecf60dbdaf40baa71d039.png

Battery switch 2 = STBD, Battery switch 1 = PORT,

NOTE the green connection between the batteries negative terminals - do you have that cross connection in your new wiring??

You would recreate the radio on/off behaviour that you are observing, if :

  1. you are missing the negative cross connection joining the two  batteries negatives. In that case the fuse panel negative is really only connected to one battery negative, and
  2. the radio is hard wired to run off the positive of the other battery.  To complete a circuit the radio positive and negative must somehow connect back to the positive and negative of the same battery.  

Here is the logic:

1. Assume Negative to fuse block (distribution panel) comes from STBD battery 2 as shown in the diagram (green arrow down), and also assume there is no cross connection to PORT battery 1 negative (and hence no negative to the fuse block from the PORT battery 1).

2. Assume Radio is hard wired to PORT battery positive or to switch pole marked 1.

3. When you switch to STBD battery 2 , the radio has positive from 1 but no negative from battery 1 does not work.

4. When you switch to PORT battery 1 , the radio has positive from 1 but no negative from battery 1 does not work.

5. When you switch to BOTH, the radio has positive from 1 connected to positive 2 AND the negative from battery 2 hence it completes the circuit with battery 2 and works !

-----------------------------

Now that leaves the question of why do the lights and the other stuff work? I can't see in your original description above how you have connected the negative wires for all of those devices. Did you replace all the negative wires with one thick negative from the battery to the fuse box? If not, and you replaced wire for wire,  I suspect as they head back some of the wires connect to one battery and some to the other - and somewhere in between they are cross connected (maybe daisy chained off a device negative terminal).  This would explain why these devices work, but it may be problematic as the cross connection may be through a very thin wire which is carrying the combined current flow when you are running off that specific battery.

I also suspect the radio's negative was kept out of this connection to keep it isolated as per the original wiring  but now you have connected this wire to a point which only takes negative supply from one battery.

Could you please confirm, 1) if you have the battery negative terminals cross connected and 2) if you replaced all the negatives with one larger diameter cable or wire for wire where they stood..

Also I would recommend you draw up a sketch of how your positive wires run from each device (light, radio, bilge etc)  back through the fuse box , through the switch to the batteries. And the same for the negative wires (negatives should be easier as they do not have fuses or go through switches).   You are looking to make sure that each device has a positive and negative path back to the same battery you are selecting to run from.

Anyway, bit of a long rambling answer late at night but hope this helps.

Cheers

Zoran

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All I want to say is "TOP STUFF" to everyone who has offered help, especially Zoran. Great reply! Hope you sort the problem Geoff and get back on the water with confidence in your vessel's wiring. bn

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, dunc333 said:

brand of radio as raging said please to help vy keyboard

 

Mate I looked and cannot find any info online for it.

23 hours ago, raging said:

“Response precision” - my Google fu couldn’t find an online manual for it.

Yeah I couldn't find anything at all for it either

21 hours ago, sydney south said:

What are the voltages on each of the batteries.

You may not be getting the required voltage from one battery alone.

I've only just got home from work, and I don't have a working multi meter to check right now, but I am hopeful I might be able to get away early enough tomorrow night so I can go buy another and check. In any case I have thrown the battery charger on one of the batteries tonight and will charger the other tomorrow when I get home. 

17 hours ago, zmk1962 said:

Hey Geoff and HEY RAIDERS - apologies it's been a long time between posts for me - work / life  have kept me way too busy .... Sam called out to me in on this one so here's my attempt.

Geoff, from what you describe I suspect you have at least two problems in the wiring. 

As background information, radios are prone to static from running motors, bilge pumps etc and one way of minimising that is to separate radio wiring from the other stuff by hard wiring the radio positive and negative supply directly to the  battery terminals. So if you previously had only one battery it may have been wired that way especially if there was no suppressor installed in the circuit. If you then replaced your circuit wire for wire, but introduced another battery and the battery switch, you may well have ended up with the radio positive attached to one battery and with no negative wire  connection from the radio back to that same battery.

Let my try and explain with the diagram below which shows a typical 2 battery wiring set up:

image.png.23cf5895fdfecf60dbdaf40baa71d039.png

Battery switch 2 = STBD, Battery switch 1 = PORT,

NOTE the green connection between the batteries negative terminals - do you have that cross connection in your new wiring??

You would recreate the radio on/off behaviour that you are observing, if :

  1. you are missing the negative cross connection joining the two  batteries negatives. In that case the fuse panel negative is really only connected to one battery negative, and
  2. the radio is hard wired to run off the positive of the other battery.  To complete a circuit the radio positive and negative must somehow connect back to the positive and negative of the same battery.  

Here is the logic:

1. Assume Negative to fuse block (distribution panel) comes from STBD battery 2 as shown in the diagram (green arrow down), and also assume there is no cross connection to PORT battery 1 negative (and hence no negative to the fuse block from the PORT battery 1).

2. Assume Radio is hard wired to PORT battery positive or to switch pole marked 1.

3. When you switch to STBD battery 2 , the radio has positive from 1 but no negative from battery 1 does not work.

4. When you switch to PORT battery 1 , the radio has positive from 1 but no negative from battery 1 does not work.

5. When you switch to BOTH, the radio has positive from 1 connected to positive 2 AND the negative from battery 2 hence it completes the circuit with battery 2 and works !

-----------------------------

Now that leaves the question of why do the lights and the other stuff work? I can't see in your original description above how you have connected the negative wires for all of those devices. Did you replace all the negative wires with one thick negative from the battery to the fuse box? If not, and you replaced wire for wire,  I suspect as they head back some of the wires connect to one battery and some to the other - and somewhere in between they are cross connected (maybe daisy chained off a device negative terminal).  This would explain why these devices work, but it may be problematic as the cross connection may be through a very thin wire which is carrying the combined current flow when you are running off that specific battery.

I also suspect the radio's negative was kept out of this connection to keep it isolated as per the original wiring  but now you have connected this wire to a point which only takes negative supply from one battery.

Could you please confirm, 1) if you have the battery negative terminals cross connected and 2) if you replaced all the negatives with one larger diameter cable or wire for wire where they stood..

Also I would recommend you draw up a sketch of how your positive wires run from each device (light, radio, bilge etc)  back through the fuse box , through the switch to the batteries. And the same for the negative wires (negatives should be easier as they do not have fuses or go through switches).   You are looking to make sure that each device has a positive and negative path back to the same battery you are selecting to run from.

Anyway, bit of a long rambling answer late at night but hope this helps.

Cheers

Zoran

 

 

 

 

 

Wow Zoran! Thanks for the write up! That is going way out of your way for a fellow member, so I really appreciate that mate.  

I think I know what you are saying in the diagram above... I'm not the best with this type of stuff.

Here is what I did though

I added one of these https://www.jaycar.com.au/12-way-fuse-block-with-bus-bar/p/SZ2032 which I used to connect my stereo, and marine radios to, and I connected that with some thicker gauge wire than I had, directly to my dual battery switch. I used one of these https://www.jaycar.com.au/marine-switch-panels-with-circuit-breakers/p/SZ1902 which I connected a positive and a negative wire from the fuse block to the switch, which has my nav lights, cabin lights, bilges connected to it. 

DO you think I should wire the stereo directly to the battery Zoran? 

13 hours ago, big Neil said:

All I want to say is "TOP STUFF" to everyone who has offered help, especially Zoran. Great reply! Hope you sort the problem Geoff and get back on the water with confidence in your vessel's wiring. bn

That's why I love this forum community BN.

Thanks mate, hopefully get it sorted as this is the only thing that is causing me problems at this moment, and it is the reason I wanted to fix up my wiring so I didn't have any dramas with it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, garfield28 said:

which I connected a positive and a negative wire from the fuse block to the switch

When you say switch here, do you mean the 2 way battery switch or something else? What switch do you have, the negative shouldn’t go to the battery switch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can use a $10 test light as well to check where the power stops, check it at the switch, bus bar and along the wiring and at the radio connection.

That will tell you if it’s the radio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zoran's post is very well analysed and well explained.  

Is your AM/FM radio power wiring wired back to the fuse block/bus bar? both the +ve (red to a fuse) and black (-ve to the -ve bus bar screw terminals?

Does the radio wiring go through a switch?  if so where does the -ve black wire route? 

Have you tried starting the motor (or at least kicking it over) from 1, 2, both since the rewire?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Supplementary question...

do your radios/instruments that appear to work OK still work when the battery switch is turned off? ie do they bypass the battery switch?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, garfield28 said:

I connected a positive and a negative wire from the fuse block to the switch, which has my nav lights, cabin lights, bilges connected to it. 

Geoff, this sounds more and more like its the issue I described above. Your radio is missing a negative connection to the battery you have selected to run from.

But to absolutely diagnose this could you please:

  1. confirm if the negative (usually black wire) from the fuse block is attached to just one battery or both?
  2. confirm if you have a cable connecting the negative terminal of battery 1, to the negative terminal of battery 2. As a minimum, this cable should be the same thickness as the negative cable that comes from your motor - it has to carry the current load at starting.

As @dmck said above, have you tried kicking over the motor with switch at 1, 2 or both. If the motor negative cable is only connected to one battery, and you do not have both battery negative terminals cross connected then your motor will work from one battery and both but not from the other. 

@dmck you are asking very valid questions that would help identify additional wiring issues - thanks. 

Cheers Z

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, garfield28 said:

Mate I looked and cannot find any info online for it.

Yeah I couldn't find anything at all for it either

I've only just got home from work, and I don't have a working multi meter to check right now, but I am hopeful I might be able to get away early enough tomorrow night so I can go buy another and check. In any case I have thrown the battery charger on one of the batteries tonight and will charger the other tomorrow when I get home. 

Wow Zoran! Thanks for the write up! That is going way out of your way for a fellow member, so I really appreciate that mate.  

I think I know what you are saying in the diagram above... I'm not the best with this type of stuff.

Here is what I did though

I added one of these https://www.jaycar.com.au/12-way-fuse-block-with-bus-bar/p/SZ2032 which I used to connect my stereo, and marine radios to, and I connected that with some thicker gauge wire than I had, directly to my dual battery switch. I used one of these https://www.jaycar.com.au/marine-switch-panels-with-circuit-breakers/p/SZ1902 which I connected a positive and a negative wire from the fuse block to the switch, which has my nav lights, cabin lights, bilges connected to it. 

DO you think I should wire the stereo directly to the battery Zoran? 

That's why I love this forum community BN.

Thanks mate, hopefully get it sorted as this is the only thing that is causing me problems at this moment, and it is the reason I wanted to fix up my wiring so I didn't have any dramas with it. 

Turn the battery switch to No2 and charge both batteries at the same time.

If your charger does not come up to being fully charged, then one of your batteries are gone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Geoff ( @garfield28 ) .... how did all this end .... did you get it sorted?

Cheers Z

 

  • Like 3
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I need closure on this 😀

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, raging said:

I need closure on this 😀

Hahaha.... but I think Geoff has lost spark on this topic ... it no longer “sparks joy”.

Cheers Z

Edited by zmk1962

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 8 Guests (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online

  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      64,688
    • Total Posts
      518,295