Koalaboi

Snapper Fishing Ban Mooted for South Australia

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3 minutes ago, Mr Squidy said:

Yeah, as a sure fire way to improve snapper stocks I've heard NSW is considering doing away with location based bans and simply introducing a "scratchie" ban  :risata:

Seriously though, such a complicated topic. Personally I'd support localised marine parks around Sydney similar to what was done in Jervis Bay providing that it is based on science, that sufficient areas are maintained for rec fishos  and that it is policed adequately. Anything that helps fish stocks is a good thing in my opinion. Sad thing is this is highly unlikely with environmentalists wanting to lock up everything in site, no resources available for policing and many fishos intent on ignoring the rules that are in place to protect the future of our sport. Its seriously pathetic how often you see people on the hacking fishing inside the shiprock marine park. There's one reserve in the whole damn river system but that's where people have to fish  :1wallbash: 

 

Rich

There was a government survey that showed an 80% drop in fishing participation in the Jervis Bay area after the park was declared. Also if 'anything that helps fish stock is a good thing' then what about better fisheries management which can be done at very little cost? 

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22 minutes ago, kingfishbig said:

Do you have any evdence that the marine parks down there will be removed? It's certainly news to me. The Coalition even tried to declare one for Sydney. And the only wind back they have done was opening up a handlful of landbased areas. It's doubful they do much anyway in NSW waters where we have fisheries management in place. It is more cost effective just to build on the existing restrictions.

Also a rise in tourism in a popular sea change destination not far from Sydney is not startling (especially given the latters population has risen by 1 million in 10 years).

Also for what it's worth I was down at Narooma one Nov a few years ago and on weekdays saw no more than a half dozen fishing boats around Monatgue Island and hardly any in the Inlet.

 

 

Its not been officially anounced but local tackle store owners and commercial fishers who've been attending the meetings where Andrew Constance seems to be making all the promises claim its a done deal. I believe there will be behind closed door meetings again this Thursday which I was invited to attend (which I won't be doing due to other commitments). Speaking with maritime and fisheries officers who are aware of the plans but like most of us still not clear how and when this will be implemented. Green groups have only just been made aware of the situation, so no doubt Thursdays meeting will be an interesting one. Personally I can't think of anything worse than being in a room full of people with different genders arguing over such things. 

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23 minutes ago, kingfishbig said:

There was a government survey that showed an 80% drop in fishing participation in the Jervis Bay area after the park was declared. Also if 'anything that helps fish stock is a good thing' then what about better fisheries management which can be done at very little cost? 

Yep, resourcing of the management of our existing systems is a huge problem, totally agree. 

As for an 80% drop off in participation that sounds pretty ridiculous to me. As a tourist from Sydney I certainly dont look at the place and think "I wont go there because of the marine parks". Look at the % of the place that is actually a sanctuary zone. End of the day if locking off a small portion fishing locations in Sydney to improve stocks resulted in 80% less people fishing then I guess I'd just have to live with having a lot more space to myself out on the water as one of the remaining 20%. Sadly i don't think I'l be that lucky somehow... 

Rich

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Id just like to add, when ever Ive towed my boat to JB I can never find anywhere to park the trailer due to packed out car parks (when the weather is good) Like anywhere if you can head up midweek things are often different.

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27 minutes ago, Mr Squidy said:

Yep, resourcing of the management of our existing systems is a huge problem, totally agree. 

As for an 80% drop off in participation that sounds pretty ridiculous to me. As a tourist from Sydney I certainly dont look at the place and think "I wont go there because of the marine parks". Look at the % of the place that is actually a sanctuary zone. End of the day if locking off a small portion fishing locations in Sydney to improve stocks resulted in 80% less people fishing then I guess I'd just have to live with having a lot more space to myself out on the water as one of the remaining 20%. Sadly i don't think I'l be that lucky somehow... 

Rich

Well it was a government survey (as reported in Fishing World Magazine). Dismissing it out of hand is not exactly showing rigor.

I'd certainly think twice about going to a town which hosted a marine park when there are others to choose from. The problem is knowing where these so called green zones are without a GPS chartplotter and a map insert showing the zoning. And I go fishing to relax and not to worry about being nabbed and facing heavy fines.

PS: Sydney fishing is fine - any improvement would just be icing on the cake and could be done just using fisheries management.

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On 8/10/2019 at 1:22 PM, back cruncher said:

Hi all...off Newcastle the coal ships have raked the grounds flat from anchoring waiting to get into the port.snaper fishing is not as productive as port Stephens,but snapper are caught often,and good ones.plenty of pros and Rex’s in both spots.and port Stephen only a beach away.

The ships anchor on sand, not much to rake flat.

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17 minutes ago, kingfishbig said:

Well it was a government survey (as reported in Fishing World Magazine). Dismissing it out of hand is not exactly showing rigor.

I'd certainly think twice about going to a town which hosted a marine park when there are others to choose from. The problem is knowing where these so called green zones are without a GPS chartplotter and a map insert showing the zoning. And I go fishing to relax and not to worry about being nabbed and facing heavy fines.

PS: Sydney fishing is fine - any improvement would just be icing on the cake and could be done just using fisheries management.

Depends on what you fish for around Sydney. Some species are doing well for sure. As someone who spends plenty of time chasing and catching Jewies, their stocks and average size are in a very poor state.

 

Rich

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3 hours ago, JonD said:

 

There are accusations that the marine park killed off tourism in our local town - many from one charter operator who gets very little of the tourist pie, due to poor service. The fact that 6 new charter businesses (that I can think of), with a total of about 9 boats, have popped up during the period of the marine park's life is totally missed. There's also the new Abbott Fisheries co-op, with their large factory boat the D&D; new commercial abalone and urchin fishos; and the accompanying businesses that sell fish, service boats and supply boat, fishing, snorkel and dive equipment, etc. 

The fact that statistics show that accomodation bookings have constantly increased, to the point people are now turned away during peak seasons, is also overlooked. A new and much larger Woolworths will be opened by Xmas and Aldi will also very shortly be 

But I think the claims were about Batemans Bay. not Narooma. 

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36 minutes ago, Mr Squidy said:

Depends on what you fish for around Sydney. Some species are doing well for sure. As someone who spends plenty of time chasing and catching Jewies, their stocks and average size are in a very poor state.

 

Rich

They seem to be getting bigger in the Georges. The stocking might have something to do with that. 

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31 minutes ago, kingfishbig said:

But I think the claims were about Batemans Bay. not Narooma. 

Narooma is part of the Batemans bay marine park. First faze restriction removal is parts of the Montague and Narooma area according to info I have been told.

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Interesting discussion. The snapper fishery varies around the nation though. Over in WA, the minimum length is 50cm and the bag limit is 2. The charter skipper I fished with over there, said that they just don’t have the expansive estuary systems we have in NSW that help a good fishery. Makes sense. I don’t know much about the fishery in SA but I suspect they also don’t have as many estuaries as NSW. Perhaps the snapper get targeted heavily due to limited other options down there and are now feeling the impact?

In NSW, I believe the RFAC has requested a 35cm minimum length for snapper (as they apparently reach sexual maturity at 32-33cm, so should allow them to breed at least once) but this has repeatedly been knocked on the head by the pros and the restaurant industry because, get this, “30cm is the ideal size for a plate”! (I have to admit, I do like a crispy fried whole snapper at one or two local restaurants here in Port Stephens... 😋)! However, I, for one, would be happy with a 35cm (or even 38 or 40) minimum length and maybe a smaller bag limit, say 5, and possibly a slot limit with, say only 1 or 2 allowed over the maximum size (to be determined), accompanied by a good education programme on how to release fish properly for the maximum survival rate. If fisheries are managed properly in this way, with science behind it, perhaps this can eliminate the need for total bans and/or closures in the future. The cracker snapper season being had at Port Stephens (and in other areas) at the moment, is fantastic but maybe, if everyone enjoying cracker sessions regularly kept and killed their bag limit (10) of big snapper, one day down track, we may find ourselves lamenting the lack of snapper, too. Just my two cents worth.

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1 hour ago, Berleyguts said:

Interesting discussion. The snapper fishery varies around the nation though. Over in WA, the minimum length is 50cm and the bag limit is 2. The charter skipper I fished with over there, said that they just don’t have the expansive estuary systems we have in NSW that help a good fishery. Makes sense. I don’t know much about the fishery in SA but I suspect they also don’t have as many estuaries as NSW. Perhaps the snapper get targeted heavily due to limited other options down there and are now feeling the impact?

In NSW, I believe the RFAC has requested a 35cm minimum length for snapper (as they apparently reach sexual maturity at 32-33cm, so should allow them to breed at least once) but this has repeatedly been knocked on the head by the pros and the restaurant industry because, get this, “30cm is the ideal size for a plate”! (I have to admit, I do like a crispy fried whole snapper at one or two local restaurants here in Port Stephens... 😋)! However, I, for one, would be happy with a 35cm (or even 38 or 40) minimum length and maybe a smaller bag limit, say 5, and possibly a slot limit with, say only 1 or 2 allowed over the maximum size (to be determined), accompanied by a good education programme on how to release fish properly for the maximum survival rate. If fisheries are managed properly in this way, with science behind it, perhaps this can eliminate the need for total bans and/or closures in the future. The cracker snapper season being had at Port Stephens (and in other areas) at the moment, is fantastic but maybe, if everyone enjoying cracker sessions regularly kept and killed their bag limit (10) of big snapper, one day down track, we may find ourselves lamenting the lack of snapper, too. Just my two cents worth.

Most people would struggle to reach their bag limit based on knowledge and angling ability. The ones that do, generally will release more fish than most rec fishos catch! (Snapper)

That is my experience of my area Port Stephens! 

The question is...........

What impact does, commercial and recreational fishos have on the snapper population???? 

IMO, we’ll never know unless we could drain the oceans and do a proper count! 

If bag and size limits are set by authorities, then that is all we have to go on! We can argue and debate all we want but that is the law! 

If you enjoy your angling, then abide by the rules set by the DPI and get out there and enjoy yourself! 

Cheers scratchie!!! 

 

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Back cruncher   the ships off newcastle anchor between 30 and 45 fathom  there have  only been 3 wrecks of trawlers in that area in the last 45yrs ive been fishing out there  born n bred in newie and fished out of there most of my life   also worked on trawlers and fished with pros for many yrs   any wrecks out there broke up naturally  or like one i fish it has nets all over it care of the viet fisherman that seem to hit it with their prawning nets every couple of years   there has never been any reef between 20 n50 fthm  thats why they anchor there and also why the newie prawning fleet works there     

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Posted (edited)

When will fisheries:

1. Remove all marine parks

2. Increase size limits above spawning size (eg snapper to 35cms)

3. Introduce seasons with closures when species are spawning.

4. Introduce commercial catch quotas per species for the pro’s.

It’s very simple, catch less fish each year than are reproduced.

Mulloway in particular I’m really concerned about, along with snapper.

As others have mentioned the problem is fisheries aren’t clued about about the population size and trends. Again, very simple problem to fix, just employ some scientists to regularly dive and record numbers at different locations throughout the year. Eg some of the inshore   Reefs and deep holes in major estuaries. Should not cost more than a few hundred grand each year than you have a sample size which can be used for trend analysis.

Why can Victoria manage their fisheries so effectively whilst NSW are grossly incompetent?

Edited by flatheadluke
Typo

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53 minutes ago, flatheadluke said:

When will fisheries:

1. Remove all marine parks

2. Increase size limits above spawning size (eg snapper to 35cms)

3. Introduce seasons with closures when species are spawning.

4. Introduce commercial catch quotas per species for the pro’s.

It’s very simple, catch less fish each year than are reproduced.

Mulloway in particular I’m really concerned about, along with snapper.

As others have mentioned the problem is fisheries aren’t clued about about the population size and trends. Again, very simple problem to fix, just employ some scientists to regularly dive and record numbers at different locations throughout the year. Eg some of the inshore   Reefs and deep holes in major estuaries. Should not cost more than a few hundred grand each year than you have a sample size which can be used for trend analysis.

Why can Victoria manage their fisheries so effectively whilst NSW are grossly incompetent?

1. There is no political will to remove all marine parks - even the LNP government wanted to create a new one for Sydney. Fisheries have very little say in it.

2. Probably a good idea for snapper.

3. Sometimes it's only practical to catch fish commercially when they are spawning. And if a long lived species is caught when spawning or when not it does I not reproduce again so it's debatable whether there is much difference.

4. Quotas can still lead to overfishing. They rely on an overall estimate of the stock which can be inaccurate and hard to measure when you have a multi species fishery and limited resources. There is nothing wrong with using imput reductions (limiting the ability of fishermen to catch fish) and monitoring things like catch rates, average sizes and ages.

Mulloway have seen increased restrictions. If that doesn't work then the next step would be to make then rec only like we did with blue groper. Also you can have yearly bag limits for recs using a tag system.

Dive surveys are of limited use and prone to bias. Eg fish will avoid divers. Monitoring catches as I outlined is the usual method.

Why do you think NSW fisheries are so incometent compared to Vic? Much of the commercial effort has been removed from NSW. We now import 92% of the seafood we consume.

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I think the Victorian fisheries do a great job in terms of stocking waters and id like to see more happen in NSW. (even though there's a fair bit of stocking done in the NSW freshwater dams). But most of the stocking is done in freshwaters so I don't know if there is a technical difficulty in stocking fish species that live in saltwater...

 

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11 minutes ago, Oz98 said:

I think the Victorian fisheries do a great job in terms of stocking waters and id like to see more happen in NSW. (even though there's a fair bit of stocking done in the NSW freshwater dams). But most of the stocking is done in freshwaters so I don't know if there is a technical difficulty in stocking fish species that live in saltwater...

 

There is a mulloway stocking program for the Georges River. Also they have released kingfish into Botany Bay.

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On 8/14/2019 at 9:25 AM, kingfishbig said:

1. There is no political will to remove all marine parks - even the LNP government wanted to create a new one for Sydney. Fisheries have very little say in it.

2. Probably a good idea for snapper.

3. Sometimes it's only practical to catch fish commercially when they are spawning. And if a long lived species is caught when spawning or when not it does I not reproduce again so it's debatable whether there is much difference.

4. Quotas can still lead to overfishing. They rely on an overall estimate of the stock which can be inaccurate and hard to measure when you have a multi species fishery and limited resources. There is nothing wrong with using imput reductions (limiting the ability of fishermen to catch fish) and monitoring things like catch rates, average sizes and ages.

Mulloway have seen increased restrictions. If that doesn't work then the next step would be to make then rec only like we did with blue groper. Also you can have yearly bag limits for recs using a tag system.

Dive surveys are of limited use and prone to bias. Eg fish will avoid divers. Monitoring catches as I outlined is the usual method.

Why do you think NSW fisheries are so incometent compared to Vic? Much of the commercial effort has been removed from NSW. We now import 92% of the seafood we consume.

Data sampling through observation is very accurate provided the statisticians avoid sampling bias. 

Fisheries know how to do it, see below from study undertaken in Lake Macquarie:

https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/545731/FFRS-125_Lowry-et-al-2010.pdf

8927C48A-7C0F-4336-981F-8AA3CDD116AD.thumb.jpeg.c9f7d7461125b475c26e911bf1a993e1.jpeg

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Posted (edited)

Your reference doesn't say anything about the effectiveness of dive surveys for what you suggested, ie estimating the total stock and setting a quota. Also baited cameras don't involve divers as per your original suggestion. Both are going to be subject to location biases as well as behaviour biases, eg where are you going to put them and what about the vast number of other locations you don't survey? These methods are more used to compare locations I think you will find, eg rec havens or green zones verses fished areas.  There are probably plenty of good reasons why Fisheries rely on other methods for estimating how the total stock is fairing. You might argue they are a bit slow to act or that rec fishers be given more of a say but I'm not sure of the merits of using different types of monitoring and making it the basis of a quota system.

Edited by kingfishbig

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On 8/14/2019 at 3:40 PM, kingfishbig said:

There is a mulloway stocking program for the Georges River. Also they have released kingfish into Botany Bay.

ah fantastic, great to hear they've done one for the jewies. Kingies as well :D 

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On 8/19/2019 at 9:03 AM, kingfishbig said:

Your reference doesn't say anything about the effectiveness of dive surveys for what you suggested, ie estimating the total stock and setting a quota. Also baited cameras don't involve divers as per your original suggestion. Both are going to be subject to location biases as well as behaviour biases, eg where are you going to put them and what about the vast number of other locations you don't survey? These methods are more used to compare locations I think you will find, eg rec havens or green zones verses fished areas.  There are probably plenty of good reasons why Fisheries rely on other methods for estimating how the total stock is fairing. You might argue they are a bit slow to act or that rec fishers be given more of a say but I'm not sure of the merits of using different types of monitoring and making it the basis of a quota system.

I need to apologise - nsw fisheries are already implementing commercial catch quotas! In fact the first started in July just gone.

https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/fishing/commercial/reform/new-quota-shares

Hopefuly this will be extended to snapper and other species like mulloway

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27 minutes ago, flatheadluke said:

I need to apologise - nsw fisheries are already implementing commercial catch quotas! In fact the first started in July just gone.

https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/fishing/commercial/reform/new-quota-shares

Hopefuly this will be extended to snapper and other species like mulloway

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The quotas apply to 17 species, many popular ones aren't included. Only two of them are listed as over fished/ depleting. Nothing there about using dive surveys to determine them (good luck with that for deep water species like gemfish). Some of the quotas they talk about are actually effort quotas, ie trip and gear limits not an absolute allowable catch.

Edited by kingfishbig

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On 8/7/2019 at 9:54 PM, Koalaboi said:

Hi Everyone,

After watching so many TV shows about the great snapper fishing in South Australia, this story won't make charter operators, commercial and recreational fishers in the area too happy. Surprisingly, the research quoted in the article states recreational fishers take close to 40% of all snapper caught. Much more than I would have expected.

'"Fishing for snapper in South Australia may be banned until 2023 to allow "decimated" populations to recover.The State Government said stocks have declined by 87 per cent in Gulf St Vincent, and 23 per cent in the Spencer Gulf.

'A statewide closure from October this year until February 2023 has been proposed in a consultation paper released by Primary Industries Minister Tim Whetstone, with the possibility that a limited season could be opened in the south-east.

'Mr Whetstone said if urgent steps are not taken, the iconic species could vanish from South Australia altogether....

'The state's commercial catch fell from a peak of 1,035 tonnes in 2010 to 339 tonnes in 2017, according to the department.

'About 62 per cent of snapper caught in the state are snagged by commercial fishers, and the rest by recreational fishers.'

Full story: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-07/sa-minister-proposes-three-year-ban-on-snapper-fishing/11393520

KB

What about the people that fillet and release or keep undersize fish. I sold a barcrusher many years ago and was asked if it had secrete compartment to hide fish by a caller.

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