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Fuel additives...anybody use them?


big Neil

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G'day Raiders. I had the opportunity to wet a line the other day but couldn't get the motor to start no matter how hard I tried. Normally it starts first pull but I haven't been able to use the boat for such a long time. Ended up emptying the fuel out and putting another 5 ltr of fresh petrol/oil in. It started easily then. I'm after info on whether anybody uses additives to maintain their fuel. What do you use and does it do the job? Is this a recommended practice for 2 stroke motors? 

Look forward to some feedback as it's quite likely to be a while between trips, at least in the foreseeable future. Cheers, bnIMG_5669resize.jpg.b0c0258a6001169bc559c3237c94cff4.jpg

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Unless the fuel is left for a very long time, additives are not needed, I would say that adding fresh fuel was just a coincidence (maybe) one thing to remember, there is different additives to do different things (most are a waste of time) old fuel cannot be made good again by adding a bottle of snake oil, or topping up with more fuel, these products should not be confused, something that claims to "clean" the engine is not used to prolong fuel life, and products that supposedly prolong fuel, do not clean the engine. I know there will be people who will say they use product X for years, and never had a problem, but equally there will be thousands who use nothing and say the same.

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I respectfully disagree with Noel. I use a fuel stabiliser in my boat fuel and in all my power garden equipment because these aren’t used regularly, unlike a car, so the fuel can become stale and lose octane over time. In my training at work, I was told that fuel starts to drop octane after 2-3 weeks. Stabiliser also helps fight moisture issues. It is claimed that stabiliser can prolong the life of fuel up to 3 years. Of course, it must be added to fresh fuel at the time of filling the tank. It will not “fix” old fuel! I use Stabil. My outboard always starts first time, as do all my old power garden tools. Even if that’s not really due to the Stabil, I feel it is a small price to pay for the piece of mind it gives me. It’s a long swim home from Broughton Island or the FAD!

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57 minutes ago, big Neil said:

G'day Raiders. I had the opportunity to wet a line the other day but couldn't get the motor to start no matter how hard I tried. Normally it starts first pull but I haven't been able to use the boat for such a long time. Ended up emptying the fuel out and putting another 5 ltr of fresh petrol/oil in. It started easily then. I'm after info on whether anybody uses additives to maintain their fuel. What do you use and does it do the job? Is this a recommended practice for 2 stroke motors? 

Look forward to some feedback as it's quite likely to be a while between trips, at least in the foreseeable future. Cheers, bnIMG_5669resize.jpg.b0c0258a6001169bc559c3237c94cff4.jpg

Beautiful looking rig there Neil. Those PVC rod holders on the rear seat are a nice touch. I might take that idea to make a rod holder on my boat.

Regarding fuel stabiliser i cant really comment as never tried them. Ive got the same size fuel tank as you and what works for me is to never completely fill the tank up. I know i use between 6 to 12 lites of fuel per trip so when i return i leave about 5 litres in the tank, then the night before the next trip i add 10 or 15 litres of fuel and shake the container to blend old and new fuel plus new oil. That way the tank is about 2/3rds new fuel and 1/3rd old fuel.

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For years I had been using several different types in my boats, cars and 4x4's but must admit not buying into it anymore. Never noticed any improvement s, in fact my Diesel Prado which had an easy life and serviced every 5000km and was stuffed by 170000km after using additives its whole life.

The auto expert tends to say it as it is.

 

 

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Just to add something, I am pretty sure some additives do "something" but then there are others like carby cleaner that you spray in the carb throat while the engine is running, it is impossible to clean the carb doing this, plenty advise proprietary products to remove water from the fuel tank, (and also Metho) unless there is very little fuel in the tank, and a very small amount of water in the tank, it won't work, end of story, lots of fixes in a bottle out there that people swear by, but in fact do next to nothing.

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1 hour ago, noelm said:

Just to add something, I am pretty sure some additives do "something" but then there are others like carby cleaner that you spray in the carb throat while the engine is running, it is impossible to clean the carb doing this, plenty advise proprietary products to remove water from the fuel tank, (and also Metho) unless there is very little fuel in the tank, and a very small amount of water in the tank, it won't work, end of story, lots of fixes in a bottle out there that people swear by, but in fact do next to nothing.

Cadogan seemed to have lost the plot with fuel stability. He says fuel can't oxidise in you fuel tank because that is 'combustion' and if that happpens then you fuel tank will blow up! He doesn't seem to understand that combustion is just a rapid form of oxidation and it can also happen slowly through air exposure.

 

Edited by kingfishbig
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I have a mate who for decades has added about 50ml of auto transmission fluid to his fuel, every time he fills up, including in his old premix outboards, his car or whatever, he would put in about 150l of fuel, then add his couple of teaspoons of the transmission fluid, he said he has done this since he has ever owned a car and won't change, because he has never had engine trouble, well, except for a blown head gasket, various other issues and one powerhead failure in his old Evinrude.......

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1 hour ago, noelm said:

I have a mate who for decades has added about 50ml of auto transmission fluid to his fuel, every time he fills up, including in his old premix outboards, his car or whatever, he would put in about 150l of fuel, then add his couple of teaspoons of the transmission fluid, he said he has done this since he has ever owned a car and won't change, because he has never had engine trouble, well, except for a blown head gasket, various other issues and one powerhead failure in his old Evinrude.......

 

2 hours ago, JonD said:

For years I had been using several different types in my boats, cars and 4x4's but must admit not buying into it anymore. Never noticed any improvement s, in fact my Diesel Prado which had an easy life and serviced every 5000km and was stuffed by 170000km after using additives its whole life.

The auto expert tends to say it as it is.

 

 

Cadogan seemed to have lost the plot with fuel stability. He says fuel can't oxidise in you fuel tank because that is 'combustion' and if that happpens then you fuel tank will blow up! He doesn't seem to understand that combustion is just a rapid form of oxidation and it can also happen slowly through air exposure.

Fuel preservers contain anti oxidants or agents which ty up trace metal. Wiki explains some of the chemistry:

 

Fuel stabilizers (antioxidants and metal deactivators)[edit]

250px-Antioxidant.png
 
Substituted phenols and derivatives of phenylenediamine are common antioxidants used to inhibit gum formation in gasoline

Gummy, sticky resin deposits result from oxidative degradation of gasoline during long-term storage. These harmful deposits arise from the oxidation of alkenes and other minor components in gasoline (see drying oils). Improvements in refinery techniques have generally reduced the susceptibility of gasolines to these problems. Previously, catalytically or thermally cracked gasolines were most susceptible to oxidation. The formation of gums is accelerated by copper salts, which can be neutralized by additives called metal deactivators.

This degradation can be prevented through the addition of 5–100 ppm of antioxidants, such as phenylenediamines and other amines.[58] Hydrocarbons with a bromine number of 10 or above can be protected with the combination of unhindered or partially hindered phenols and oil-soluble strong amine bases, such as hindered phenols. "Stale" gasoline can be detected by a colorimetric enzymatic test for organic peroxides produced by oxidation of the gasoline.[80]

Gasolines are also treated with metal deactivators, which are compounds that sequester (deactivate) metal salts that otherwise accelerate the formation of gummy residues. The metal impurities might arise from the engine itself or as contaminants in the fuel.

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5 hours ago, noelm said:

Unless the fuel is left for a very long time, additives are not needed, I would say that adding fresh fuel was just a coincidence (maybe) one thing to remember, there is different additives to do different things (most are a waste of time) old fuel cannot be made good again by adding a bottle of snake oil, or topping up with more fuel, these products should not be confused, something that claims to "clean" the engine is not used to prolong fuel life, and products that supposedly prolong fuel, do not clean the engine. I know there will be people who will say they use product X for years, and never had a problem, but equally there will be thousands who use nothing and say the same.

Thanks for your reply noelm. This is the longest that I have ever left the boat (and fuel) unused and I sort of half expected there may be a problem starting it up. The fresh fuel mix started the motor as it normally starts so I am making the presumption that the fuel had deteriorated. I have never used anything in my 2 stroke mix before but heard that some people reckon that the fuel can be prevented from deteriorating in the tank during long periods of no usage. I guess the easiest and most effective solution is to try to keep fresh fuel in the tank. Looks like I'll be keeping the left over fuel for the garden implements, which incidentally. start easily with the older fuel. Cheers, bn

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Hi all,

 I use Nulon/Repco Fuel Injection cleaner and it works. I have a four stroke mower, started to complain and I couldn't be bothered cleaning the carby etc. I added fuel injector and away we went. That was four years ago and the mower is still going strong. I add this cleaner to my cars and the boat. As far as I am concerned it works. Nulon makes the cleaner for Repco. So if you buy Repco you are buying Nulon.

Cheers.

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2 hours ago, back cruncher said:

Hi all...e10 is a fuel I would never use.ive seen first hand the damage it done to the carbies on my bikes that went into storage.

 

36 minutes ago, Rebel said:

Just adding to what back crucher says about E10. Do not use E10, believe me I have seen the problems E10 does.

I took the NRMA to task years ago and won. Damaging fuel.

Cheers.

Anyone who uses E10 fuel on their boat clearly hasn't read the manufacturers instructions that came with the motor because just about every outboard maker clearly advises operators not to use E10.

I guess my point is this isn't a "learned experience"....rather those who have done it didn't bother to check if they could.

Edited by GoingFishing
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7 hours ago, noelm said:

I have a mate who for decades has added about 50ml of auto transmission fluid to his fuel, every time he fills up, including in his old premix outboards, his car or whatever, he would put in about 150l of fuel, then add his couple of teaspoons of the transmission fluid, he said he has done this since he has ever owned a car and won't change, because he has never had engine trouble, well, except for a blown head gasket, various other issues and one powerhead failure in his old Evinrude.......

I know of several people who blew gaskets and powerheads in their yammies. Poor sods cost them a bomb to fix it. 🤓

Back on topic @big Neil I would agree with Noel. Doesn't sound like a fuel problem. Perhaps some of the pipes had become crusty or the fuel needed some time to work it's way back from the tank to the engine.

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22 hours ago, Tunastrike11 said:

 I have a yamaha  4stroke and leave fuel in the boat for up to 6 months never had a problem with octane or anything else.

The problem is more about gums, varnish clogging up fuel injectors or carbies. It's safer to use a fuel stabilizer if you think you might not use the boat for more than 3 months. Boating has more in common with aviation than automotive use in that the consequences can be much greater if something goes wrong. Also another reason to disregard John Cadogan's missive.

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On 8/19/2019 at 5:52 PM, GoingFishing said:

 

Anyone who uses E10 fuel on their boat clearly hasn't read the manufacturers instructions that came with the motor because just about every outboard maker clearly advises operators not to use E10.

I guess my point is this isn't a "learned experience"....rather those who have done it didn't bother to check if they could.

Im on a few US boating groups on FB and alot of the boaters over there complain that lots of stations now only sell ethanol blended fuel.  I think the newer motors are designed for ethanol fuels but lots of them still use additives like "ring free" and "stabil" and never let the ethanol fuel sit for long at all.  Would suck to be them.  :(

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2 hours ago, Fishop said:

Im on a few US boating groups on FB and alot of the boaters over there complain that lots of stations now only sell ethanol blended fuel.  I think the newer motors are designed for ethanol fuels but lots of them still use additives like "ring free" and "stabil" and never let the ethanol fuel sit for long at all.  Would suck to be them.  :(

I am yet to hear of a single outboard sold in Australia that is ethanol compatible. Happy to be corrected 

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Syphon the old fuel, even premixed, and put it in the car and top up your motor, been doing it for years, you do not waste any, unless you are going to race at Le Mans it will not affect the vehicle, unless its a diesel!

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On 8/20/2019 at 5:27 PM, kingfishbig said:

The problem is more about gums, varnish clogging up fuel injectors or carbies. It's safer to use a fuel stabilizer if you think you might not use the boat for more than 3 months. Boating has more in common with aviation than automotive use in that the consequences can be much greater if something goes wrong. Also another reason to disregard John Cadogan's missive.

yeah you are right can gum up boat has 200ltr tank and i leave it around half then fuel up with fresh fuel before going out should help things.

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45 minutes ago, Tunastrike11 said:

yeah you are right can gum up boat has 200ltr tank and i leave it around half then fuel up with fresh fuel before going out should help things.

That won't help if the fuel has degraded to the extent that gums and varnishes have formed. And remember the fuel is still sitting in the fuel system where deposits can form and cause problems with injectors and carbies.. If you use a preserver it's a good idea to run the engine for 10 min with the treated fuel.

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