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Why I'm over flouro


Volitan

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Earlier in the year I made a device for objectively testing breaking strain of fishing lines and rigs. This I followed up with one for testing abrasion resistance.

I did this because line durability vs visibility is very important to me as I fish landbased, and unfortunately I’m pretty much limited to well fished (perhaps overfished) localities. If I had a boat, I probably wouldn’t care, but I need to use the lightest line possible to fool leader-shy fish, and I need to stop them immediately or they will be lost around pylons, oyster beds, moored boats etc. Not an easy task with a decent size kingfish and in truth most of them fairly quickly find the weaknesses in my tackle.

This happened again recently when I purchased some fluorocarbon (Sunline FC Rock 30lb) and stupidly went out after kingfish without testing it first. I noticed when I snagged up a couple of times that it was breaking at a low kg, but it was almost time to go home so I persisted with it. Inevitably a good size kingfish grabbed hold and broke me off almost immediately. Heartbreaking - I spend far too long trying to get a fish like that on to let the chance go by.

Anyway, I decided to test the Sunline FC Rock flouro against my go-to mono nylon, plus purchased another flouro for good measure. So the test subjects were

Penn Super X in 30 lb

Black Magic Flouro leader in 30lb

Sunline FC Rock in 30lb

One middle-market nylon against 2 flouros, all purchased within the last couple of weeks.

The results are in the attached spreadsheet.

I think it makes good reading and there are a lot of lessons there for people who regularly go out undergunned.

Methodology.

I do the straight-line tests in the industry standard way by wrapping the line several times (without crossover) around low-friction bollards and clipping off. Knots direct to tackle are tested by fixing the hardware to a peg and wrapping the loose end around a bollard. A steady pressure is applied to the line till it snaps, and a scale preserves the breaking point so it can be read off later. The abrasion tests are done with the line fixed at one end, laid over a poly pipe wrapped with 120 grit sandpaper,  and weighted at the other end with a 2kg weight. As the pipe is rotated (simulating the line being drawn across exposed rock) it winds on a tape, so that when the line breaks the tape can be read giving the number of millimetres of passage across the rough medium that the line can tolerate. I also do durability tests by drawing the line to 60% of its breaking strain 50 times, then measuring the breaking point. This simulates a big fish giving your line hell. 

Although I present only the 5 final results for each test case, my method is to do multiple tests until I’m confident I am tying good representations of the knot (or whatever), then do the 5 tests.

 I start each session by calibrating the test rig, and knots are drawn up with olive oil and examined briefly under a handlens before testing. Maybe some people think this is being a bit fussy, but I feel that if your going to spend this much time doing something you might as well do it properly.

Results as Excel file attached. Conclusions in next post.

linetest result 1.xlsx

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What can be learnt from this.

1.   Both the Penn and BlackMagic are underrated. Manufacturers do this deliberately to give the impression their lines are remarkably strong. The Sunline is overrated. I suspect this is because it’s a Japanese product and the Japanese buy line by diameter, not by breaking strain. Really, the Penn and Black Magic are 35lb lines sold as 30lb, and the Sunline is 25lb line sold as 30lb. Looking down to the table of measured line diameters you can see the real breaking strains are entirely in line with line diameter not with claimed breaking strain, so no surprises there.

2.   The snelled hooks were disappointingly weak. I’ve always preferred to snell hooks in the belief it’s stronger, but clearly it isn’t so.

3.   When knotted (regardless of snell, double-loop uni or palomar) fluorocarbon loses a great deal of its strength compared to mono. The Black Magic was by far the worst, losing 23%. The FC rock is a bit more forgiving so I wasn’t surprised to see it only lose 13%. The Penn lost only 4%.

4.   I got a real surprise when I decided to look at the consequence of tying to different hardwares to examine some puzzling breakoffs. Look at the results and you will see that halving the diameter of the hardware tie-on point reduced the knots by about 18% for the nylon, but hardly at all for the fluorocarbon. A 1.5mm wire is about the diameter of a typical 6/0 hook, while a 0.8mm diameter wire is about normal for a size 1 swivel. For a swivel with 1.5mm diameter wire you need to choose a 3/0 swivel which is the biggest stocked in most tackle shops. Use any less on 30lb mono and you are compromising the strength of your rig by about 30%. I have always chosen swivels by breaking strain and consequently usually chosen a size 1 swivel - but never again.

5.   Finally, abrasion. Again the Penn mono performed better then the Black Magic Flouro, with the Sunline FC rock being consistent with its diameter. No product was a star.

Consequently I’ve given up on flouro.

I hope people find this useful. Next up I’m going to look at some Jinkai Plus leader.

 

Edited by Volitan
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I did several tests my self quite a few years ago, even took a sample of different flouro and mono down on scuba gear to see how it looked at different depths!!!!!

Like you say very poor abrasion resistance and terrible knot strength using conventional knots, however these can be greatly improved by using special flouro knots. Those same flouro knots also improve normal mono knot strength. 

Apart from the above findings we've done many side by side tests using same baits, hooks and sinkers etc and without fail my normal mamoi diamond in clear outfished all the flouro lines we tested, which I was very surprised by.

I know there are many happy users of flouro and I'm certainly not trying to discourage anyone from using it if they are happy doing so. My daughter fishes every day in any weather and loves using Fc rock in lighter class ( 3lb ) but in saying that she often returns home feeling down after loosing a few bent minnows at $33 each. She didn't seem to loose lures using Schneider mono but her tournament bream champion boyfriend tells her FC rock is the best and she buys into it!!!!!

One of the biggest factors for me with flouro is the fact companies are creating so much waste in packaging for so little line with this stuff.

 

 

Edited by JonD
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Jon what are the ‘special fluoro knots’ you are talking about. Can you suggest a couple and I’ll test them before I move on to something else.

i note that salt Strong (authors of the video you posted) found in their testing that the Palomar was the best for fluoro to tackle. 
 

id be curious.

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I have been telling people this for years, and most seem to look at me like I'm crazy or something. Think I started a thread on here about it a while ago, but it also didn't get much reaction. Fisho's like the new trends and gear and get sucked in to wasting their hard earned.

Did I ever mention what a rip off the egei ( spelling ) fad is, you just have to have this gear if you want to catch squid. Really!!!.

 

Frank

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2 hours ago, frankS said:

I have been telling people this for years, and most seem to look at me like I'm crazy or something. Think I started a thread on here about it a while ago, but it also didn't get much reaction. Fisho's like the new trends and gear and get sucked in to wasting their hard earned.

Did I ever mention what a rip off the egei ( spelling ) fad is, you just have to have this gear if you want to catch squid. Really!!!.

 

Frank

💯 percent agree Frank. But I’ve stopped telling people, lead a horse to water kind of thing

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3 hours ago, Volitan said:

Jon what are the ‘special fluoro knots’ you are talking about. Can you suggest a couple and I’ll test them before I move on to something else.

i note that salt Strong (authors of the video you posted) found in their testing that the Palomar was the best for fluoro to tackle. 
 

id be curious.

I would be interested in your opinion regarding the particular knots Jon.

Well done Volitan on the methodical presentation of your findings. Keep going with your research, we can all gain some benefit from your findings. And I know that it stimulates your creative mind. Cheers, bn

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5 hours ago, Volitan said:

Jon what are the ‘special fluoro knots’ you are talking about. Can you suggest a couple and I’ll test them before I move on to something else.

i note that salt Strong (authors of the video you posted) found in their testing that the Palomar was the best for fluoro to tackle. 
 

id be curious.

 For attatching to braid i use a PR knot and for terminal tackle ( hooks and swivels ) these in this video, they seem far better than a Uni with flouro.

 

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1 hour ago, big Neil said:

I would be interested in your opinion regarding the particular knots Jon.

Well done Volitan on the methodical presentation of your findings. Keep going with your research, we can all gain some benefit from your findings. And I know that it stimulates your creative mind. Cheers, bn

See how you go with the knots I posted in this video above.

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When I tried fluoro line many years ago, the 6 lb seemed like it broke around 4 lb, so I never used it again - cannot now remember the brand.

I stick to mono - especially since I handline in the deeper water in Port Hacking, 12 and 15 lb - and use Schneider brand, an average diameter line. I don't use a leader, just straight to the hook. The same when using soft plastics, nippers or other baits, no leader used.

For the rods, I use the thinnest diameter I can buy, such as Sufix brand(Finland). I see that Platypus (Australia) is making a thinner diameter line, and there are a few brands from Japan also. These brands claim to have a higher abrasion resistance. I use the high abrasion resistance mono as a leader in a couple of situations, such as a double dropper when bottom bouncing for ocean flatties.

I don't use braid at all.

I use hook and swivel knots that I learnt as a kid, and they still work for me.

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John, Is that knot similar to the "Thumb Knot" but just tied with a different technique to form the twists/wraps? I normally use a thumb knot where is go through the hook then around the end of my thumb or finger three times and then slip the loops off the end of my finger and poke the tag through all of the loops that were around my finger in the direction from the hook back up towards the rod. Then i just have to make sure the twists/wraps form properly before tightening down.

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I don't use fluorocarbon leaders for the abrasive resistance I use them because of their ability to be less visible to fish over 90% of most mono's.

 

Personally its an expensive test but I would like to see the top 10 or so fluoro brands tested against each other then test the top contender against the mono.

 

I would expect the results would be quite different between different brands in the same weight class/diameter. 

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Kingie. This would be the only reason I would use Fluro as well but who can tell how the fish see line under water ? their eyes are not the same as ours, we can only go by what the marketing guru's tell us and they want to make big bucks so could tell us anything, they say scientific evidence but who from ?.

Frank

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12 hours ago, JonD said:

 For attatching to braid i use a PR knot and for terminal tackle ( hooks and swivels ) these in this video, they seem far better than a Uni with flouro.

 

The first one looks pretty similar to a uni.

I like the second one, I might tory it when going a bit heavier line.

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Just in from testing the two Eugene knots – the ones recommended by Jon above.

The results are attached and pretty much speak for themselves.

Just a couple of comments on these:

I didn’t have high hopes for the Eugene slip knot because of the single loop through the hook eye. It was in fact a fairly weak knot. I did notice that it’s a very hard knot to tie badly – mainly because it draws up so smoothly. A good knot to teach children or perhaps to tie in the dark if you don’t mind sacrificing a bit of strength for reliability.

The second knot, the double Eugene bend, was actually a very good knot. It tested stronger then either the double loop uni or the palomar. The difference is not great, and doesn’t go very far to closing the gap between flouro and mono, but it was consistently stronger.

I should test it on mono and see how it does.

Both Eugene knots had relatively flat result profiles too, indicating they have high reliability, which is probably more important then raw breaking strength. In contrast the palomar knot is a very good knot but has lower reliability due to the problems drawing it up smoothly and that shows in the results.

I think the double eugene bend gains its strength from the fact that every bit of line is doubled, right through the knot. There is no point where a single line is exposed to stress. Quite clever.

Eugene knots compared.xlsx

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These days after testing stuff myself im more than happy to use Berkeley Trilene clear. Im well over the hype of flouro, sinks faster blah blah blah, invisible blah blah blah, ok, unless your using ultra stand out yellow or similar. Lets see, connect a jig head with a softie, is my flouro gonna sink faster than my 1/2 ounce total rig? What's that all even mean in the grand sceme of things?

Just kachingaching for themanufacturer's. Look at all the fish caught in pictures and stuff before all this "you gotta have this, you won't catch as many" crap. There are pictures, and have done it myself with my dad as a kid, that would make these sales guys eyes water. So much sales bs these days it makes me laugh.

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On 12/5/2019 at 11:53 PM, JonD said:

See how you go with the knots I posted in this video above.

Hey Jon. Thanks for supplying the video of the eugene slip and double eugene bend knots. I have just spent a bit of time learning them. To be honest I find no benefit from either of them, relevant to the type of fishing which I do. Certainly the eugene slip knot looks quite neat and would be ok for general purpose tying of spinnerbaits but the double eugene bend is FAR TOO BULKY and could be a (potential) hinderance. 

You do a lot of unique underwater stuff Jon and probably know more about the habits of marine creatures than most of us. Do fish have eyesight which picks up mono but not fluro? I'm sure that the advertising world, which seemingly has no scruples when it comes to absurd sales pitches, is sales driven and the claims they make seem to get more extreme by the day. Angling has become a technological assault on marine life these days. Where will it all end? Cheers, bn

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1 hour ago, big Neil said:

Hey Jon. Thanks for supplying the video of the eugene slip and double eugene bend knots. I have just spent a bit of time learning them. To be honest I find no benefit from either of them, relevant to the type of fishing which I do. Certainly the eugene slip knot looks quite neat and would be ok for general purpose tying of spinnerbaits but the double eugene bend is FAR TOO BULKY and could be a (potential) hinderance. 

You do a lot of unique underwater stuff Jon and probably know more about the habits of marine creatures than most of us. Do fish have eyesight which picks up mono but not fluro? I'm sure that the advertising world, which seemingly has no scruples when it comes to absurd sales pitches, is sales driven and the claims they make seem to get more extreme by the day. Angling has become a technological assault on marine life these days. Where will it all end? Cheers, bn

I just go fishing to catch a feed. If the fish are hungry, you will hook them, if not hungry then they won't bite.

Like me, us old farts have been there, done that with fishing, and don't need to buy the expensive tackle.

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Hey Neil that’s a good point about the Eugene bend being bulky. I did notice it but it didn’t bother me. I actually wondered if, given that you have three tag ends, someone creative could think of a way of plaiting the three around the main line for a short distance, so you have a kind of built in resistance to teeth.

Yowie, the good thing about individual sports like fishing is that everyone gets to approach it in their own way. I fish landbased on the Central Coast and honestly the going is hard, very hard. If I was content to catch fish like flathead and bream then it would be OK but I’m hopelessly oriented to sports fishing species. I estimate that I get a chance at a decent fish (my definition) about once every four or five trips. When you come home empty handed four times out of five you don’t want to waste any chances through gear failure.

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i think you guys are probably right about the claim that Flouro is less visible being rubbish.

As I see it, some marketoid came up with the line that Flouro has the ‘same refractive index as water’ and that makes it less visible. Now everyone just repeats it without thinking about it. The two problems I see are:

1. We see reflected light, not refracted. Same with fish. Maybe refraction plays a role, but it would be very small by my understanding.

2. what exactly is ‘water’. It might be true for laboratory standard water but that’s nothing like the deep green stuff in front of my house, for example.

maybe someone who understands the properties of light better can enlighten us.

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I agree with Yowie. I was always taught that bait was the most inportant thing, next to the hook. Third thing was the fun and relaxation of going fishing.

I think a few of you guys should lighten up and enjoy a great sport. There are no $$$$$$$$$$$$$ at the end of the day except the fish you caught and the fun teaching children what it is all about.

Cheers

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8 minutes ago, Rebel said:

I agree with Yowie. I was always taught that bait was the most inportant thing, next to the hook. Third thing was the fun and relaxation of going fishing.

I think a few of you guys should lighten up and enjoy a great sport. There are no $$$$$$$$$$$$$ at the end of the day except the fish you caught and the fun teaching children what it is all about.

Cheers

Ha ha! 😂 I’m thinking of going back to winding some mono on a Tooheys long neck and see how I go! 😂 Or maybe find some gut line... I know a place where there are hundreds of stray cats... 😂😂

Edited by Berleyguts
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