Outboard not tilting up

[Sigma]

Hey Raiders,

Need some help from the guru's on outboards.

Its been a while since I've had a chance to wet a line and as today was my last day of my holidays, thought I would make a day of it.

So, got up at 3.45am and started to pack the boat. I charged the batteries yesterday as I haven't used the boat for a few months.

Anyway, all packed and went to tilt the motor up.....no go. Tilt the motor down, works fine. So, immediately thought....RELAY.

About 12 months ago, had the same problem and found out it was a faulty relay. At the time, changed it and worked beautifully. Bought a spare as I thought that the other (original) would pack it in sooner or later. So, this morning after looking for the damn thing for 30mins, I find it in its original pack and swap them around. Go to tilt up....nothing. Swap the relays around....still nothing. Listen to it as I'm switching the switch and notice the clicking only coming from one relay and that is for the down. Using my multimeter, put the red on the red wire (86 on relay) and black on the blue/white wire (87 on the relay) (using current/amp function on multimeter) and she starts to tilt up without use of either switch. Tested the voltage to both relays on prongs 85 & 86.......shows 12v.

Anyway, 5hrs later....we are still here banging our heads and wondering whether to put some petrol over it and throw a light....grrrrr.

If anyone has ANY idea, it would be sooooo nice if they could share some light what could be causing this.

Theoutboard is a 1999/2000 Johnson 115Hp Ocean Pro if that helps

 

cheers 

Dave

Edited January 14, 2020 by Sigma

[dmck]

Swap the 2 wires to the pump-motor over ON THE RELAYS. leave all other wiring standard.

 

The down relay will now activate the 'up' wire when you push the 'down' button.

 

If the motor lifts, you still have a relay problem.

 

If it doesnt... you have more work to do.

There are 2 ways of wiring tilt/trim motors,

1        2 only wires to the mootor.  both wires are earthed through the relays in the normal (not activated) position. When you push the button to tilt/trim, that up or down relay operates and switches 12v positive on 1 of the wires. the motor now has power and operates.  Switc the tilt button the other way and the other relay puts 12v + on the other wire and the motor operates in the reverse direction.

 

2    the tilt/trim motor has 2 windings,  each connected to 1 of the relays.  there is also a 3rd lead , an EARTH lead to the motor.  When you operate a relay it switches in the appropriate motor winding for up or down.

 

the relay for 1 MUST have 5 terminals.( 2 for coil and 3 for a change-over contact)

  The relay for 2  only needs 4 ( 2 for coil and 2 for a MAKE contact)

 

hope this helps

[dunc333]

the swap is good as [posted above)2.have you checked fluid level in tilt and trim is there any leaks.they do have a manual screw on most you can realease and manually move it cheers dunc333 .yes i understand redheads could solve the problem for sure👹🔨😻

Edited January 15, 2020 by dunc333

[Sigma]

Hi guys,

Just so that you all don't think that I'm ignoring you, I found a temporary solution to get me out on the water today. After a very late start, we just got back and the problem is still there. I would probably need to get into a bit more detail than I did this morning cause I was frustrated trying to get out on the water and I would like to take some pics and put them up but it's quite late now and I will come back to this topic as I still have the problem. When I said that I swapped the relays around and there was nothing, I meant to say it still didn't go up but it still went down which tells me there is no issues with the relays as both worked in the down mode. Although the motor is 20yrs old, she in very good nick and has only 510hrs on her. I can't swap cables around as dmck suggested as I would actually physically need to cut them cause the relays sit in a housing side by side. Also, the hydraulics are perfect. Not a drop of oil coming out and the engine flies up and down when the relays were working good. Need to show you pics of what I mean.

will get back to you all soon

 

Cheers

Dave

[takethebait]

Hi.  I've had a similar intermittent problem, but where the motor would come up and not go down.  I finally found it was the spring-loaded plastic sensor that was stuck.  The motor "thought" it was fully down so simply wouldn't go down.  Might be worth a look? Good luck. 

[dmck]

On 1/15/2020 at 9:37 PM, Sigma said:

Hi guys,

Just so that you all don't think that I'm ignoring you, I found a temporary solution to get me out on the water today. After a very late start, we just got back and the problem is still there. I would probably need to get into a bit more detail than I did this morning cause I was frustrated trying to get out on the water and I would like to take some pics and put them up but it's quite late now and I will come back to this topic as I still have the problem. When I said that I swapped the relays around and there was nothing, I meant to say it still didn't go up but it still went down which tells me there is no issues with the relays as both worked in the down mode. Although the motor is 20yrs old, she in very good nick and has only 510hrs on her. I can't swap cables around as dmck suggested as I would actually physically need to cut them cause the relays sit in a housing side by side. Also, the hydraulics are perfect. Not a drop of oil coming out and the engine flies up and down when the relays were working good. Need to show you pics of what I mean.

will get back to you all soon

 

Cheers

Dave

Dave, I would love to know your temporary solution.  It may help diagnose the true problem.

[Sigma]

On 1/19/2020 at 5:40 PM, dmck said:

Dave, I would love to know your temporary solution.  It may help diagnose the true problem.

Hi dmck,

The temporary solution was that I connected 1 longer wire to the red of the relay wire, and another to the blue (tilt up) relay wire so that it was sticking out from under the cowl. When I needed to tilt up, I would touch the ends of these wires together and it would tilt up. When I wasn't using it, I used electrical tape and isolated each end to avoid getting a short if it touched metal. 

See pics.

Cheers...Dave

[Sigma]

I can't upload anymore photos as its more than 4.88mb. I will have to shrink them to fit once I get some time and put them on my laptop.

Anyway, I'm wondering if the problem lies with the up/down switch(s) on the outboard motor and lever/accelerator? Are they chain linked so if one has an issue, does it affect the other? At the moment, to tilt up, both switches don't work. I looked up youtube and they had the chap from Dangar explaining the relays and trouble shooting issues. Problem was that everything was explained to check this and that, the clicking in the relay etc...but his relays were all working and nothing mentioned "if" the relay wasn't clicking...what could it be or what to check. 

 

[dmck]

 

NOTE WELL:   for the motor to tilt (up or down) BOTH relays MUST be plugged in.

 

 

 

You may have done all of the following, but please do these tests in order. and report the result at each stage.

 

Put the wiring back to stock standard.

Using ONLY the tilt switch on the motor (NOT the one on the remote control).....

If you activate the tilt-up does the relay 'click' ? From your last post I'm assuming NO

 

If you activate the tilt down can you hear the relay click ? and does the motor tilt down?

Can you identify which relay is clicking so that you can identify which is for up and which is for down?  if so mark the relay cover AND the relay socket so that you dont have to remember later.

Identify the wires on the back of the tilt-switch... there may be 2 or 3  How many?

trace the wires from the back of the switch.... there is usually a joiner in them.  Can you get to the joiners?

I'm assuming there will be 3 wires, 2 will go to the relays (1 wire to each) .  Using your voltmeter identify whether there is 12 volt +ve  or -ve Earth on the 3rd wire. 

Short the 3rd wire to each (in turn) of the relay wires.  This is bypassing the tilt switch.  You should hear the relays click and the motor should tilt.

IF 1 relay doesnt click and the motor doesnt tilt, connect your multi meter (set to measure DC volts) between the 3rd wire and each of the other 2 relay wires.  THis is measuring/checking that there is a connection to the relay, through the relay to either +ve OR -ve.   Both wires should measure the same.

If 1 wire does not show a connection (to either + or -)  note which wire is suspect, swap the relays and retest the wires.  Is the same wire 'faulty' or has it swapped to the other wire.

 

MOre to follow.... but enuff for you to go on with.....

Edited January 21, 2020 by dmck

[dmck]

I forgot to ask, do the relays have 4 or 5 terminals?

[Sigma]

1 hour ago, dmck said:

I forgot to ask, do the relays have 4 or 5 terminals?

5 terminals.

[Sigma]

 

6 hours ago, dmck said:

 

NOTE WELL:   for the motor to tilt (up or down) BOTH relays MUST be plugged in.

I know this. Even if you don't plug one in, the other working one won't work either.

 

 

You may have done all of the following, but please do these tests in order. and report the result at each stage.

 

Put the wiring back to stock standard.

Using ONLY the tilt switch on the motor (NOT the one on the remote control)..... Tried both...only tilts down from either switches

If you activate the tilt-up does the relay 'click' ? From your last post I'm assuming NO - No Clicking...click coming from the Tilt Down only. New relay was  installed...no change, still going down only. Swapped relays around, still going down but not up (obviously relays are good as if new relay was faulty, the down wouldn't work either)

 

If you activate the tilt down can you hear the relay click ? and does the motor tilt down?  Yes

Can you identify which relay is clicking so that you can identify which is for up and which is for down?  if so mark the relay cover AND the relay socket so that you dont have to remember later.  Its easy to remember and I can identify which relay is clicking and which one isn't. The relay (closer to you on pic) with GREEN wire is for "TILT DOWN". The furthest relay with Blue wire is for "TILT UP" (Blue = Sky = Up ....and.... Green = Grass = Down). Furthest (Blue is not clicking when pressing switch)

Identify the wires on the back of the tilt-switch... there may be 2 or 3  How many? (See new photo attached - need to check more)

trace the wires from the back of the switch.... there is usually a joiner in them.  Can you get to the joiners? (Will check - not sure atm)

I'm assuming there will be 3 wires, 2 will go to the relays (1 wire to each) .  Using your voltmeter identify whether there is 12 volt +ve  or -ve Earth on the 3rd wire. (Will try this but I did disconnect each relay and put my multimeter accross each relay. It showed 12V was there on both relay pins (housing) when I first tried to work it out- thats why it confused me what the issue is)

Short the 3rd wire to each (in turn) of the relay wires.  This is bypassing the tilt switch.  You should hear the relays click and the motor should tilt.

IF 1 relay doesnt click and the motor doesnt tilt, connect your multi meter (set to measure DC volts) between the 3rd wire and each of the other 2 relay wires.  THis is measuring/checking that there is a connection to the relay, through the relay to either +ve OR -ve.   Both wires should measure the same.

If 1 wire does not show a connection (to either + or -)  note which wire is suspect, swap the relays and retest the wires.  Is the same wire 'faulty' or has it swapped to the other wire.

 

MOre to follow.... but enuff for you to go on with.....

Hi dmck,

Some I can answer now as I have already done some of the things you are asking.

Some might have to wait till the weekend or if i get some time between now and then after work.

I have attached some more pics

In the pic with the housing, the thick blue wire and thick green wire in the centre of the housing go to the tilt motor

I will try and do some more testing like you mentioned above.

If you have more questions, please ask and I will endeavor to answer them as best I can

 

Cheers....Dave

 

PS: Don't know why some pics ended up sideways and even upside down...they are not like that on my laptop....sorry about that.

 

Update: Just changed a couple of pics cause it was confusing...

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Sigma

[dmck]

iGNORING THE RELAY COILS,   the switch is a 'change over' contact..  IN the off position of the tilt switch both leads to the motor are connected to -ve (earth)

When you operate the UP switch the LH contacts (UP relay) operate and connect 12 v +ve to the blue lead,  the motor operates to tilt up.

When you release the tilt switch the LH contacts release and the blue wire is connected back to -ve earth.

When you operate the DOWN switch, the RH contacts operate, connecting the Green wire to 12 volt +ve and the motor operates to tilt down.

 

Looking at the relay contact lugs on the bottom and  a diagram to show the internal connections:

 

Pin 30 will go to the tilt motor

Pin 87A will go to -ve earth

Pin 87 will go to 12 volt +ve

85 and 86 are the relay coil (electro-magnet) terminals

AS you have swapped the relays over and the problem persists, we assume the relays are good.

It is possible that the 12v +ve is missing from pin 87. Check the socket with your volt meter. (fuse?)

 

TAKE CARE... the socket for pin 87 is HOT and may not be fused!! 

If this test is OK it is the wiring to operate the relay.  This could be faulty connectors 85 and/or 86 in the socket itself.

Check the voltages on the good relay socket 85/86 and compare to the faulty. Operate the tilt switch too and compare on these terminals.

What we dont yet know is if the tilt switch switches +ve or -ve  toward the relay coil (85/86)

 

Hope this all helps.

 

[dmck]

Any progress with this?

[Sigma]

20 hours ago, dmck said:

Any progress with this?

Not yet @dmck,

Its either been too hot or too wet....or no time to do it.

At the moment, for the past 3 days, we have had torrential rain and can't even walk outside let alone work on something. Unfortunately, the boat is not under cover.

Will keep everyone updated as soon as I can get to it.

Cheers

Dave

[Sigma]

Hello my fellow Raiders, 

Well, I finally got around to trying to rectify this problem I have with the outboard not tilting up. So, decided to take @dmck advise and start to narrow it down.

First, I got a digital voltmeter and measured voltage on each pin from each relay. Whatever was on each pin of relay 1, relay 2 was exactly the same. So, we had 12V on both relays. Ok, next...lets have a look at the Up/Down switch....could there be a cut/disconnect near the switch? Unfortunately, this was a pain as the plastic nut holding the switch in place was in front of the main positive and negative wires that go to the batteries. So, turned off the main power and disconnected the wires. Took the nut off and inspected the wiring at the switch. The wiring looked like new and the connection going into switch looked ok but couldn't see inside the switch as it appeared to be moulded into the switch. Ok, this looks good. Let's trace the wire further up from the switch to the relays. Trace it up and it comes to a 3pin plug (like dmck explained). Inspect the plug. Open the plug, Plug looks like new. Close the plug and try the switch down...it works. Try the switch Up...nothing again.

There are three wires (red/blue/green) from switch to plug and same again from plug to relay housing. Blue is obviously for tilt up, green is for tilt down and red is the positive 12V feed. So, let's see if we are getting 12V to the plug pin? Put the voltmeter black prong to an earth on the outboard, push the red prong into the red wire pin connection....nothing! Hmmmm, thought to myself...maybe this is where the problem is? OR maybe I didn't get proper connection (didn't push the prong in deep enough to touch the pin or wire itself?). After a long pause, thought to myself...let's try this one more time. This time pushed the prong in deeper and I hear this CLICK near the relay housing. I thought....could it be? So, try again the switch...tilt down, it works. Now...try the tilt UP.....BZZZZZZZ, it's working.  YIPPPEEEEEE!!!!!

It was the plug connection....something that simple!!

So, tried it about 20 times up and down....she works like new. Hah....nearly forgot something. Need to try the up/down switch on the throttle lever inside the boat....YEP....she works there also.

So, problem fixed and it appears that there was a bad connection like a hot spot or something in that 3 pin plug. Just shows you that some things can be confusing but if you try things step by step like deck suggested, you can get to the cause. 

I would like to thank all my fellow raiders for all their input and a special thanks to @dmck

 

Cheers Dave

Edited February 16, 2020 by Sigma

[dmck]

Good news Dave, and you have the satisfaction of solving it yourself (asking for advice IS part of the self-solution) and it not costing you $$$ without getting a truthful explanation.  If it happens again you will know the process to follow--- and the first place to look!

Glad your 'back in the water' (so to speak) and pleased I could assist.