Knot sure - FG or GT knot

[DerekD]

Hi All,

Something for those people going stir crazy stuck at home but with a passion for knots.

As a joiner knot I'd used the uni to uni (or double uni) knot for over a decade as it was the recommended knot for the braid I was using at the time. Even came with instructions. Down the track I'd heard of an improved version where the braid was doubled up (the double double uni knot) and everything else was the same. Bit of a pain to tie and some line wastage but it worked.

A mate of mine is a fan of the slim beauty. With his eyesight it was an easy one for him to tie.

Out of curiosity one day we decided to test his knot and mine head to head. Braid (uni to uni knot) to leader (say 40cm) and then back to same braid (this time with the slim beauty). One end of the braid was still on the spool. The other end was wrapped 6 times around a smooth cylindrical pole and then pinned. This ensured that there were no sharp points to cut into the line. Essentially it was a tug of war arrangement and as we gradually loaded up the line to failure it would be obvious which of the knots failed first and thus being the weaker knot. It was then to be repeated a second time to make sure it wasn't a glitch.

My uni to uni knot lost both times to the slim beauty. I then used the double double uni knot. This time the slim beauty knot lost twice.

Moving on I found a method to tie the FG knot which I liked as all the tension was done between index finger and thumb and there was minimal line wastage. My mate has after some resistance taken some time to learn it only recently.

A few days ago I got a smug sounding phone call from him telling me that there is a stronger knot than the FG called the GT knot and sent me the following link with an explanation of the background and how to tie it. He was happy as it was very easy for him to tie as he already used a component of it for his slim beauties.

Or for an alternate video but with less wraps.

The engineer in me kicked into gear. To me it looked like the figure of 8 knot from the slim beauty combined with uni knot for the braid part. Why was this stronger? Was it stronger? I have some spare Platil Millennium Hotfiber 3 in 15lb (which is what I use on several of my spinning 4000 reels) and some  30lb Japanese Yamatoyo Famell 100% nylon shock leader sitting around. I fish these as a combination on several of my snapper rods so I thought it would be a fair real world test for my fishing set up. This time I went leader to braid to leader.

One knot was the FG knot. For the other I used his method. Now please note that it is a pretty well presented video. The presenter has also included a note at the bottom which is "all the knots tested and rated by the IFGA (sic) were tied to a Bimini Twist mono leader line. There is no guarantee in any of the knot strength ratings unless you tie the knot using a Bimini Twist leader line. In this demonstration, I did not use a Bimini Twist Leader line".

Following his instructions the head to head test saw the GT knot lose twice in a row. I'd seen his note about the bimini twist (which I can tie) but I think he meant that the mainline braid had been done with a bimini twist and not the leader.

I didn't think the bimini twist was critical but I did think the doubling up of the braid was. I repeated the knot and made sure that my double was long enough that I could pull both the braid tag and mainline back at the same time to cinch up the knot. I trimmed the mono tag and the loose bits of braid. The knot is more clunky than the FG but as I don't have my leader knot passing through the runners this is a non issue for me.

This time the FG knot lost two times. Now I'd seen the effect of doubling up with the double double uni. My theory is that the 8 times turns with the doubled up line creates a bit of a bumper/cushion and prevents the braid from cutting into itself. Not sure how to verbally explain this but at no point in the loaded part of the line is there a really sharp change in direction to create a stress point (an overhand knot is what I'd consider an example of a high stress point).

I still have to test this with one of my 50lb braid to 80lb leader setups. When restrictions allow I will also spend some time with my mate testing one of his go to setups.

Rather than get into theoretical discussions, if any other people have some time on their hands please give it a try and see what result you get. Maybe my knot skills are letting me down. If other people can replicate my results then that is a bit of an eye opener.

Now another two provisos. Firstly I'm looking at comparative strengths and not breaking point as a percentage of line strength. Secondly, what the video presenter called the GT knot may or may not be the same as what the IGFA actually tested. I found a far older version of this knot which was similar in concept but very different in execution.

Happy tying and testing,

Derek

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by DerekD

[kingie chaser]

Interesting Derek.

There is also the PR knot which I have recently come across.

Be interested to see some test ratings on that one as well.

[big Neil]

An interesting hypothesis Derek and one which definitely tweaks your engineering mindset. The knot may have value in other applications (I'm sure that it does) but isn't ideally suited for passing through the eyes of the rod. I like to learn how to tie new knots and often try them out whilst fishing. Not having a technically oriented mind I'm always quite happy to use something that works adequately rather than contemplate the potential of it. Thanks for introducing the GT knot to the forum Derek, it will occupy a bit of time whilst the fishing is in the doldrums. Cheers mate, Neil.

[DerekD]

2 hours ago, kingie chaser said:

Interesting Derek.

There is also the PR knot which I have recently come across.

Be interested to see some test ratings on that one as well.

Hi KC.

For the strength of the PR knot watch the first video link - very early on there is the IGFA result table. GT knot was listed as 100% but the one next down the list was the PR knot with 99.5% rating.

Have you seen a method of tying it without special tools (bobbin) or better yet do you have a link you would recommend for it. I'd like to try it while I have some time. Happy to test it against both the FG and GT knots I've been playing with. I can now do the FG knot on a bobbing boat out on the ocean without having to put the rod in a holder to get the needed tension so it passed the practical test for me.

While I genuinely appreciate the effort that the IGFA and others have put into testing and rating all these knots I'm coming to the conclusion that for most of us this tug of war method is more practical. It gives us a chance to compare knots that we would personally tie under what for us would be normal conditions.

Found a couple of mates testing the PR against the FG

Regards.

Derek

Edited April 14, 2020 by DerekD

[wazatherfisherman]

Very interesting thanks for posting Derek!

[big Neil]

Hey Derek. Well u got me a bit interested in this subject. I watched the above video and am curious as to why there's such a massive variation between the 5 tests each on the PR and FG knots. Given that the tested knots were tied by the same person one may assume that there shouldn't be too much variation. So what else could cause such a huge variance? Whatever it is?? does it mean that it is too great a variance to ignore when it comes to testing one knot against another?

I have made the GT knot up a few times and still wouldn't rate it as "more beneficial" to my type of fishing than the FG because of the overall thickness of it. I'll be interested in your follow up testing and conclusions. Cheers, bn

[kingie chaser]

I particularly like the idea of how the GT knot attaches to the double 👌

 

Ill be practicing that one!

[Green Hornet]

I used to use the slim beauty before progressing to the FG.

Tying the slim beauty in light leaders, the figure 8 part of the leader would often be very small when formed, making it hard to thread the braid through. For those that want to stick with the slim beauty or FG, the pic I've included shows an easier way to form the leader knot part with the braid threaded through. Just ensure the braid and leader twists are running the same way.

[DerekD]

Bouncing around between some knot videos while doing some further research I came across this video which is the most elegant way I think I've seen for someone to do a bowline (pretty sure she pronounces it bow-Lynn ). Actually the whole video was a bit of an eye opener and well presented. Her fastening method for the tarp was also clever.

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by DerekD

[wazatherfisherman]

2 minutes ago, DerekD said:

Bouncing around between some knot videos while doing some further research I came across this video which is the most elegant way I think I've seen for someone to do a bowline (pretty sure she pronounces it differently ). Actually the whole video was a bit of an eye opener and well presented. Her fastening method for the tarp was also clever.

 

Good instructional video! If you're a rock fisher, especially a climber, it's important to learn how to tie a bowline one handed (each hand) If you go in or get injured on a narrow ledge, at least you can tie a thrown rope to yourself quickly and securely. Gives a non slip loop for being "hauled" on. Rolling hitch for guy ropes

[Guest Guest123456789]

FG is the perfect knot tied correctly and superior to all others for connecting two lines. Greater than 100% breaking capacity and slimmest profile. My leader breaks before the knot does (lighter than braid mainline).

Edited April 16, 2020 by Guest123456789
Typo

[big Neil]

On 4/15/2020 at 10:51 AM, Green Hornet said:

I used to use the slim beauty before progressing to the FG.

Tying the slim beauty in light leaders, the figure 8 part of the leader would often be very small when formed, making it hard to thread the braid through. For those that want to stick with the slim beauty or FG, the pic I've included shows an easier way to form the leader knot part with the braid threaded through. Just ensure the braid and leader twists are running the same way.

Now that's a very handy tip GH. The figure of eight can be a bit of a problem if one needs glasses because it is so small. This method which you've made available overcomes that. Cheers, bn

[kingie chaser]

On 4/15/2020 at 7:03 PM, DerekD said:

Bouncing around between some knot videos while doing some further research I came across this video which is the most elegant way I think I've seen for someone to do a bowline (pretty sure she pronounces it bow-Lynn ). Actually the whole video was a bit of an eye opener and well presented. Her fastening method for the tarp was also clever.

 

Thanks Derek, has to be the easiest method I have seen for tying a bowline & I really like the loop over the slip knot as a stopper. Great vid & gave her a thumbs up on YT.

[DerekD]

13 hours ago, flatheadluke said:

FG is the perfect knot tied correctly and superior to all others for connecting two lines. Greater than 100% breaking capacity and slimmest profile. My leader breaks before the knot does (lighter than braid mainline).

Hi Mate,

"Greater than 100% breaking capacity" is a big call. Maybe against on the box line rating but the consensus from most sources I have seen braids usually overtest and the question is by how much. I have a 4lb braid which gives a US, a Japanese and a European rating. These are dramatically different and is probably based on the testing method. I suspect the US method includes a knot reduction factor in its rating and the Japanese rating which is over double of the box rating is probably actual breaking rating. So if I understand what you are saying you are using a heavier, say 10lb, braid mainline (which probably breaks at 20lb) with a lighter mono leader of say 8lb which probably breaks at 10 to 12lb lb. Your results are not that surprising. If you have a line test bed at home and have done extensive testing then I will concede this point. 😄

I found an article on the IGFA knot testing with the results. Interesting is how the results change depending on line classes:

https://www.sportfishingmag.com/strongest-fishing-knots-braid-to-leader/

Even the International Game Fishing Association only achieved up to 82% breaking strength with the FG knot so where did you get the 100% from?

Have you actually tried it against the GT in a direct head to head as I suggested or are you quoting the mantras and results from other people (as I just did)? Did you pause and look at the IGFA tables in the top video - according to that table the FG rates below the GT? The FG is a far more elegant knot and less clunky than the GT but in my case it lost twice with the header and leader I mentioned above. In your case as the leader you use has a lighter rating than the mainline it may have a different result. I would like to know from a real world test based on how people actually tie their knots under fishing conditions rather than the more perfect conditions of a testing laboratory where probably nothing is rushed. I'll probably continue to use the FG knot as it does the job I need it to but it is nice to know the relative strengths. BTW my testing the knots only twice is not a good sample - 5 or more times would have been better. Hence my reason for reaching out to other Raiders.

I would love to hear your actual test results - also please double up the braid when creating the GT knot. When all this shit is over if we are in the same area I'd like to catch up for a fish and then do some further testing with you and have a friendly drink on the results.

Regards,

Derek

Edited April 17, 2020 by DerekD

[Guest Guest123456789]

11 hours ago, DerekD said:

Hi Mate,

"Greater than 100% breaking capacity" is a big call. Maybe against on the box line rating but the consensus from most sources I have seen braids usually overtest and the question is by how much. I have a 4lb braid which gives a US, a Japanese and a European rating. These are dramatically different and is probably based on the testing method. I suspect the US method includes a knot reduction factor in its rating and the Japanese rating which is over double of the box rating is probably actual breaking rating. So if I understand what you are saying you are using a heavier, say 10lb, braid mainline (which probably breaks at 20lb) with a lighter mono leader of say 8lb which probably breaks at 10 to 12lb lb. Your results are not that surprising. If you have a line test bed at home and have done extensive testing then I will concede this point. 😄

I found an article on the IGFA knot testing with the results. Interesting is how the results change depending on line classes:

https://www.sportfishingmag.com/strongest-fishing-knots-braid-to-leader/

Even the International Game Fishing Association only achieved up to 82% breaking strength with the FG knot so where did you get the 100% from?

Have you actually tried it against the GT in a direct head to head as I suggested or are you quoting the mantras and results from other people (as I just did)? Did you pause and look at the IGFA tables in the top video - according to that table the FG rates below the GT? The FG is a far more elegant knot and less clunky than the GT but in my case it lost twice with the header and leader I mentioned above. In your case as the leader you use has a lighter rating than the mainline it may have a different result. I would like to know from a real world test based on how people actually tie their knots under fishing conditions rather than the more perfect conditions of a testing laboratory where probably nothing is rushed. I'll probably continue to use the FG knot as it does the job I need it to but it is nice to know the relative strengths. BTW my testing the knots only twice is not a good sample - 5 or more times would have been better. Hence my reason for reaching out to other Raiders.

I would love to hear your actual test results - also please double up the braid when creating the GT knot. When all this shit is over if we are in the same area I'd like to catch up for a fish and then do some further testing with you and have a friendly drink on the results.

Regards,

Derek

I’m film it. The line snaps before the knot. Never tested it against a GT only in my garage.

[DerekD]

7 minutes ago, flatheadluke said:

I’m film it. The line snaps before the knot. Never tested it against a GT only in my garage.

"film it" - I hadn't thought of that one.

The FG is an elegant if not beautiful knot and I'll continue to use it over the GT due to its slimline profile. When I start to lose fish regularly because of knot failure then I'll consider changing.

I've heard multiple claims the FG is the strongest knot out there and it will give 100% breaking strength to the point it is almost a mantra. When claims that the GT knot was stronger came out, of course I'm interested. If it can beat the FG knot that has a 100% breaking strength how is that physically possible? Is the GT knot 110% or is the FG knot actually sufficiently weaker that to be noticeable?

It is only after reading that even the IGFA can only get up to 82% out of the FG knot on proper test beds with three knots submitted for testing that I had the aha moment.

It is food for thought and another example of not taking everything as gospel. Do I care sufficiently to test it - Yes! Am I going to spend days and weeks doing so - Nope! Rather be fishing. It is the questioning of what I do and the small iterations and improvements that help me get better at fishing.

[Guest Guest123456789]

3 minutes ago, DerekD said:

"film it" - I hadn't thought of that one.

The FG is an elegant if not beautiful knot and I'll continue to use it over the GT due to its slimline profile. When I start to lose fish regularly because of knot failure then I'll consider changing.

I've heard multiple claims the FG is the strongest knot out there and it will give 100% breaking strength to the point it is almost a mantra. When claims that the GT knot was stronger came out, of course I'm interested. If it can beat the FG knot that has a 100% breaking strength how is that physically possible? Is the GT knot 110% or is the FG knot actually sufficiently weaker that to be noticeable?

It is only after reading that even the IGFA can only get up to 82% out of the FG knot on proper test beds with three knots submitted for testing that I had the aha moment.

It is food for thought and another example of not taking everything as gospel. Do I care sufficiently to test it - Yes! Am I going to spend days and weeks doing so - Nope! Rather be fishing. It is the questioning of what I do and the small iterations and improvements that help me get better at fishing.

It’s commonly accepted spliced and joined ropes can be stronger than the individual ropes. Why not fishing lines?

theres not many things I exceed at but at the risk of sounding up myself I rate my ability to tie an FG knot. I have a few tricks that I haven’t seen in fishing mags or YouTube tutorials.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Guest123456789
Typo

[blaxland]

for braid to leader I use FG best knot I have ever learnt to tie I now find it easier than the slim beauty allthough I have to use my teeth. I have had rigs snap off ( hooked long reef the other day) I normally use a heavier leader than my braid according to the packet and it snaps below the knot. I have had a few FG fail only because i will use the same knot untill the leader is 30cm long before I retie. I do not need a stronger knot. 

 

[kingie chaser]

Any knot tied where the actual line breaks/fails before the knot will do me.

And the FG does that for me, plus it runs through the guides nicely.

I'm willing to give the GT joining the double a go for sure over an Albright.

I think we all individually choose knots that suit us it their ease of tieing & purpose for situation