Braid Questions

[FishOutaWater]

Hi all,

 

Sorry in advance for the long post!

 

Firstly just wanna say I read the sticky post on braid (very interesting!), and I did a search for the info i'm looking for but to no avail. 

 

I have been a Mono filament bait fisher all my life (That's a long time  )   I tried braid about 10 years ago, with very average success.

The issues I had was that it broke very easy in relation to the given breaking strain

I had issues with line twist and tangles, regardless of swivels I used.

When I was casting  I could feel the leader not passing through the guides so I feel it affected my casting distance and winding in the knot would catch on the guides. 

 

Fast forward to today, I'm booked, locked, and loaded to go to Fraser during the last week of August (restrictions permitting...).

I'm taking with me my 2 Gary Howard surf rods One is a surf Bream, The other is a greenback, with 650 and 750 Alveys (both with drag) respectively, and my Gary Howard Estuary 9 for bream/whiting.

 

Tomorrow I'm more than a bit excited to say, I pick up my newest rig, Assassin XH 11' Graphite Rod paired with a Shimano Saragosa SW 8000. Specifically for casting metal slugs, weighted minnows, and largish poppers.  Of course i'm trying to connect with Tailor, but I wouldn't mind catching a Queen fish or an elusive GT, both would be a first for me.

 

I have decided to give Braid a solid crack again.. I figure its been 10 years, surely braid has come a long way in that time. However I have a few questions

 

• Firstly What brands are people using?
• What breaking strain or PE should I be looking for? I was thinking of having a spare spool so I can have one with lighter line for tailor and other species, and a heavier line for popping, fishing for Jews etc.. is it worth doing this with braid or am I just better off going a heavier braid on the reel to begin with.?
• How long should a leader be? Does it really need to go all the way back to the reel and What's the easiest and most compact knot to use when joining main line to leader so it goes through the guides with no issue?
• Is there a different rule concerning swivels when using braid?

 

Bonus Question: When fishing for tailor  using (Halco Twisties), and popping/and using weighted minows for GTs, Queenies, and other toothy critters; which is better, a single strand stainless wire trace (i'm thinking of making a few) or a heavy 60-80lb mono trace/tippet?

 

THANKS in advance for your help,  it just feels like a waste buying an outfit like this and putting mono on it, And I have NO Idea when it comes to braid.

 

Thanks heaps in advance for your help!

 

Mat.

[DerekD]

Hi Mat,

People rave about braid for a good reason. Better strength for diameter results in improved casting distance. The sensitivity is such that I can feel a bite from 100m away. Supposedly it has a 1% stretch compared to mono with its 10% stretch which means I can work my lures without that spongy feeling. It also helps set the lures. I've been using it for over 15 years.

That you had such a bad early experience suggests something was not quite right. Maybe a nick in your runners. Maybe cheap braid. Maybe incorrect line class. Maybe poor knots or a combination. When teaching someone on the 4lb braid I start with I ask people to gradually load it up till they snap it and then point out they will likely cut themselves before they can. It doesn't like shock loading but that is difficult to achieve when fishing (rod flex won't allow it). Line twist may have been a reel issue - were you using an Alvey?

When I started with braid the general consensus was at least a rod length of leader. In practice I could feel the knot (double uni knot pass through the runners) which indicates there is repeated impact on casting. When I snagged up the line usually broke at the leader meaning I lost several metres of fluorocarbon unnecessarily. The solution to both issues was to shorten my leader to about 80 to 100cm maximum depending on which rod I use. Think about why you are using the length of leader you have in mind. I've caught plenty of fish on 10 to 15cm of leader when I figured I could get one more lure change out of it. With the exception of being able to handline the fish up when it is at your feet on say the rocks or of some of the superlight bream fishing lines I haven't heard a justification (yet) for a long leader that made sense to me. Mostly it seems to be people repeating what other people have said.

The trendy knot these days is the FG which is an elegant knot and one of the stronger ones out there. The method I now use as it doesn't require special tension and can be found in this video but I use a different finish than the half hitches shown and you will see that in the second link:

 
Now the finish of the knot can be found at a little after five minutes on this link:

I can manage to do it with the really fine lines but that has taken a bit of practice. With 10lb braid or heavier it comes up a treat. Generally my leaders are 50% to 100% more than my main line. It will cast out through the runners but in my case it can catch on the top runner on the way back in but as I use a leader just long enough not to pass through the runners it is a non-issue.

There is so much competition out there in the braid market that if you are not at the top of your game it could hurt your reputation. Don't buy ebay just because it is cheap. I stick with major brands such as Daiwa or Shimano or Berkley as I won't go too far wrong. Personally I'm using PowerPro, Berkley X5 and X9, YKG jigging braid, Platil Millenium, YYKG jigging braid and a couple more.

The MorningTide fishing crew do a lot of fishing off the rocks up your neck of the woods. Worth watching their videos on YouTube to see what they are doing.

Why use a swivel (or if I do it is at the lure such as Halco twisty)? It is a great way to damage a rod tip when ripping a lure back if your timing is off. If you have to use a swivel then the palomar knot two or three times through with the braid is a very strong knot.

I'd be rethinking your idea for wire. I do have a flexible shielded line for the working end of the rod but I think mono leader should work for most circumstances. People with a bit more experience up your part of the world will be able to give a better answer than I can.

To answer your other questions can you tell me the line and lure rating on the rod.

Edited May 1, 2020 by DerekD

[frankS]

Mat. Do NOT use braid on a Alvey reel, I repeat do NOT use Braid on a Alvey reel. 

And IF you still insist on using braid on an Alvey tape your fingers up with thick bandaids and wrapping etc.

IF you decide to get and use spinning ( eggbeaters ) reels ( probably no good as your new rod probably has a low winch/reel mount ) ( you could modify butt to suit ) Ah where was I, yas, Don't use braid with A;veys.

Frank

[dirvin21]

For your saragosa?, probably a good quality 30lb braid, I've used quite a few brands and the sufix 832 braid is all I use now it's smooth enough and doesn't deteriorate after a few months, 

Leadee doesn't need to be too long, as already said learn the fg knot

 

[frankS]

Ahhh OK. So reading back on your post you state you are getting new rod and reel, that's fine, braid will be great for that outfit. ( just don't be tempted to put braid on one of your alveys.

For other answers, Derek has pretty well covered it. Frazer you are more likely to get Tailor and Dart than anything else, queenies and GT's are not common from the shore/beach.

Light line/braid will do fine.

Frank

[big Neil]

I use Suffix 832 and the FG knot. It's good braid. bn

[kingie chaser]

 

11 hours ago, FishOutaWater said:

Hi all,

 

Sorry in advance for the long post!

 

Firstly just wanna say I read the sticky post on braid (very interesting!), and I did a search for the info i'm looking for but to no avail. 

 

I have been a Mono filament bait fisher all my life (That's a long time  )   I tried braid about 10 years ago, with very average success.

The issues I had was that it broke very easy in relation to the given breaking strain

I had issues with line twist and tangles, regardless of swivels I used.

When I was casting  I could feel the leader not passing through the guides so I feel it affected my casting distance and winding in the knot would catch on the guides. 

 

Fast forward to today, I'm booked, locked, and loaded to go to Fraser during the last week of August (restrictions permitting...).

I'm taking with me my 2 Gary Howard surf rods One is a surf Bream, The other is a greenback, with 650 and 750 Alveys (both with drag) respectively, and my Gary Howard Estuary 9 for bream/whiting.

 

Tomorrow I'm more than a bit excited to say, I pick up my newest rig, Assassin XH 11' Graphite Rod paired with a Shimano Saragosa SW 8000. Specifically for casting metal slugs, weighted minnows, and largish poppers.  Of course i'm trying to connect with Tailor, but I wouldn't mind catching a Queen fish or an elusive GT, both would be a first for me.

 

I have decided to give Braid a solid crack again.. I figure its been 10 years, surely braid has come a long way in that time. However I have a few questions

 

• Firstly What brands are people using?
• What breaking strain or PE should I be looking for? I was thinking of having a spare spool so I can have one with lighter line for tailor and other species, and a heavier line for popping, fishing for Jews etc.. is it worth doing this with braid or am I just better off going a heavier braid on the reel to begin with.?
• How long should a leader be? Does it really need to go all the way back to the reel and What's the easiest and most compact knot to use when joining main line to leader so it goes through the guides with no issue?
• Is there a different rule concerning swivels when using braid?

 

Bonus Question: When fishing for tailor  using (Halco Twisties), and popping/and using weighted minows for GTs, Queenies, and other toothy critters; which is better, a single strand stainless wire trace (i'm thinking of making a few) or a heavy 60-80lb mono trace/tippet?

 

THANKS in advance for your help,  it just feels like a waste buying an outfit like this and putting mono on it, And I have NO Idea when it comes to braid.

 

Thanks heaps in advance for your help

 

Mat.

Hi Mat,

I learnt my lesson, I now use mono when fishing off the sand or rocks but with a spinning reel.

Cuts will happen with braid & yes it will tangle mainly due to wind & overrun of the line.

I use braid for everything else with the exception of trolling for large game.

 

I wouldn't use wire for GT's but I would be taking something bugger than 80lb ono/fluro leader!

 

[JonD]

By far the best braid Ive used is the sufix 131, it feels round and smooth just like braid and silent through the rod guides. It's more a expensive but lasts and lasts with no signs of fading or fluffing like most braids do. Because it remains like new it doesn't hold water sticking it to the spool, this results in far greater casting distances with lighter terminal tackle.  The pressure line suffers as it gets pulled over rod guides targeting kings usually has me changing braid regularly, not the case however with 131, so in the long run for me it's cheaper.

 

As for mono on tailor, that's all I ever use. My recent posts with tailor to 92 cm were all on mono, with the daytime captures using mamoi 20lb leaders and halco twisty's ( and 20lb 131 braid)

The after dark session using baits where we still landed big tailor and numerous sharks ( not gummies) but upped the traces to 50lb mamoi mono. After many sharks and tailor from the report I posted we only lost one hook but that was on a shark we did actually beach, which was more a case of luck than anything else. Wire will reduce your catch rate on most species in my opinion and also becomes a kinked mess after a fish. 

Halco twisties are only about $6 and not the end of the world if you do loose one, mine only seem to get lost into other people's tackle bags ( mostly my kids!!).

If you opt for slightly heavier braid you will most likely need heavier lures to get any distance flicking from the shore, so a few 50g or 60g would be worth carrying too.

The trebles soon loose their sharpness so carry a small sharpening stone to run over the edges of them. By trying not to let them pull through the sand as the lure gets close in will help reduce the bluntening. Replacing the trebles with quality singles is a good option too, I use bkk diablo hooks on many of my lures.

[JonD]

One other thing, my son kept managing to get wind knots in just about every braid he used. After watching his casts I noticed how jerky his style had become and also how short the line from the lure to the tip of the rod was.  I got him lengthening his line so that the lure reached the closest guide to the reel, which in doing so made his casts much smoother and he no longer gets wind knots. The cast starts with the lure in the direction of where he intends it to land, then a smooth swing behind followed by power in the forward flick. We both struggle to maintain sight of the lures now as he casts.

[kingfishbig]

Sounds like a case of bad knots if the line is breaking below breaking strain. I use a double uni knot to connect the leader but double the braid using a bimini twist. Inread of the usual 20 turns I use 40 plus in the bimini. This seems to be close to 100% strength as when breaking off on snags the line breaks somewhere other than the leader knot or the hook straightens.

As to casting or wind knots having the reel slightly underfilled and closing the bail manually seem to help.

[nutsaboutfishing]

I’m using kairiki braid. 
i use the FG knot because I’m pretty sure it’s the thinnest knot you can tie and so passes through the guides the best

 I only tie swivels to my leader, never the braid

[FishOutaWater]

13 hours ago, DerekD said:

To answer your other questions can you tell me the line and lure rating on the rod.

Thanks for the awesome response and the videos, Both look like awesome ways of doing the FG knot.

 

So I picked up my rod and reel today, I bought a Pen Prevail 10-15kg Lure rating 50-150g, and a Shimano Saragosa 8000 Spooled with multi colour J Braid 8, 30LB 

 

Thanks again!

13 hours ago, frankS said:

Mat. Do NOT use braid on a Alvey reel, I repeat do NOT use Braid on a Alvey reel. 

And IF you still insist on using braid on an Alvey tape your fingers up with thick bandaids and wrapping etc.

IF you decide to get and use spinning ( eggbeaters ) reels ( probably no good as your new rod probably has a low winch/reel mount ) ( you could modify butt to suit ) Ah where was I, yas, Don't use braid with A;veys.

Frank

LOL...   Well aware of that I prefer my fingers in one piece..  .  I have mono on my Alveys.

My new rod is not a low mount..

 

Thanks any way 😂

 

 

Thanks for your help guys, I just cant wait for these god forsaken restrictions to be over so I can get back out there...

[DerekD]

7 minutes ago, FishOutaWater said:

So I picked up my rod and reel today, I bought a Pen Prevail 10-15kg Lure rating 50-150g, and a Shimano Saragosa 8000 Spooled with multi colour J Braid 8, 30LB 

I was leaning towards the 30lb multi-coloured braid as a suggestion but it was dependent on the rod. The braid will give you a good idea of the distances you are casting. I'd suggest matching it with a supple clear 50lb mono. Maybe Black Magic supple trace for example. While I use fluoro on my light gear I find in the heavier ratings it is a little stiffer than mono. The FG will tie really well with that line combo with a bit of practice.

If you find you are getting busted off then maybe up to a heavier leader but for what you mentioned above I think you will have a sweet outfit.

I suspect you will find the sweet spot for casting that rod will be around the 90 grams (3 ounce). Yes you can cast 150 grams but the way the rod loads up will probably feel better with a slightly lighter lure. You swap casting mass for casting speed.

Just as a teaser as to how a Saragosa sounds like when line is peeling off watch this video.

Looking forward to hearing how it casts when you finally give it a go. Just take extra care not to drop it in the sand when on Fraser island.

[FishOutaWater]

Derek That Video!  That kings a MONSTER...   I've caught meter kings and they go hard, but that's nuts... the 20000 Saragosa sounds the goods though!

[61 crusher]

12 hours ago, FishOutaWater said:

So I picked up my rod and reel today, I bought a Pen Prevail 10-15kg Lure rating 50-150g, and a Shimano Saragosa 8000 Spooled with multi colour J Braid 8, 30LB 

I picked up the same rod yesterday & going to put my penn slammer III 6500 on, the prevail rods are a good price for what you get, can’t wait to try it out

 

[PaddyT]

The absolute key to avoiding wind knots , twisting and tangles in braid is to wind it onto the reel under really good pressure. I use braid (and have a wide variety of brands on reels , some of which would be 8-10 years old) on virtually everything except my game outfits and brought my first spool of braid 25 years ago. Over complicating your rigging will solve nothing except making you better at tying knots. Wind it onto your reel under PRESSURE. For that part of the coast larger fish are certainly a possibility off the shore and sharks are always present. However 50lb leader is more than adequate for chucking large metals, poppers, stickbaits etc off the rocks or surf. I would suggest a meter or so of 50lb mono-dont waste your money on flourocarbon-knot strength is poor and the ""invisibility"" is overstated when chucking lures and a nive smooth casting style will enable you to fish very comfortably and tangle free.