Ron's Tips #1 Anchor Tool

[kingfishbig]

10 hours ago, GoingFishing said:

Seems like the issue you raise would be a universal problem for all metals....why single out SS lol??. Plenty of gal fittings that can catastrophically fail due to hidden structural failures? And in fact one could argue that gal has a higher risk as the structural failure could be hidden under the gal coating undetected...a problem which does not exist in SS

You can't have read my well researched links then  Their whole point is that stainless steel behaves differently to gal steel.

[noelm]

There's a whole bunch of stuff going on here, first off, in "most" applications, stainless bolts and shackles will be fine (this does not include engineered loading situations) but, in real terms, stainless has some negatives, it has a low shear strength compared to mild steel, it suffers badly from "galling" which is when trying to remove a nut, it grips the other section and forms kind of balls of metal that destroys the thread, add to all this, cheap stainless of poor quality, and the negatives are amplified. Any sort of "clip" will never be as strong as a formed shackle, but, they look nice and serve a purpose, though should not be used on high stress applications.

[antonywardle]

Thanks for the tip Ron ( @campr ) It might help me with the bungs too!

[GoingFishing]

4 hours ago, kingfishbig said:

You can't have read my well researched links then  Their whole point is that stainless steel behaves differently to gal steel.

All metals behave differently to each other. Its really common sense. 

My point is,  why single out SS for concerns over structural failure when thats a risk that exists with all metals.

Hmmm🤓🤓

[noelm]

4 hours ago, GoingFishing said:

All metals behave differently to each other. Its really common sense. 

My point is,  why single out SS for concerns over structural failure when thats a risk that exists with all metals.

Hmmm🤓🤓

I guess because stainless is commonly used around boats, where other metals not so, no use worrying about (say) silver or titanium, hardly likely to find any on a boat, but stainless is commonly used, and often in applications where perhaps it shouldn't be

[GoingFishing]

6 minutes ago, noelm said:

I guess because stainless is commonly used around boats, where other metals not so, no use worrying about (say) silver or titanium, hardly likely to find any on a boat, but stainless is commonly used, and often in applications where perhaps it shouldn't be

Fair enough...its still a moot point though....because all the metals that are ordinarily used in boating would still share same risk of structural failure due to corrosion.

Edited August 23, 2020 by GoingFishing

[kingfishbig]

4 minutes ago, noelm said:

I guess because stainless is commonly used around boats, where other metals not so, no use worrying about (say) silver or titanium, hardly likely to find any on a boat, but stainless is commonly used, and often in applications where perhaps it shouldn't be

 

4 hours ago, GoingFishing said:

All metals behave differently to each other. Its really common sense. 

My point is,  why single out SS for concerns over structural failure when thats a risk that exists with all metals.

Hmmm🤓🤓

Or that there was a post here showing an anchoring set up which included a stainless steel swivel and clips.

[zmk1962]

Firstly apologies to @campr that the intent of your great thread has "corroded" away.  I love your anchor tine bender - I plan to make one for my boat. I will use ally tube like you have - as I agree that gal tube corrodes too much and ally tube would corrode far less. I could use stainless, but a  thick wall ally tube will be cheaper and do the job - and there it is again, an example of oversizing the metal thickness to compensate for strength against the mild steel alternative - with the benefit of negating corrosion impact !!  

Now regarding my quick anchor change set up - the back to back s/s snaps.

@kingfishbig and @noelm I guess the rest of this post is directed at you (everyone else is probably long bored) as you have raised the most concern about my suggestion to use oversized s/s snap clips for a tool-less solution to swapping anchors....but I note you have not really volunteered any alternatives or outlined what you use in your anchoring setup. 

Nevertheless, in a final attempt to bring this discussion to some closure,  I will state up front.... Stainless steel CAN corrode (can - implies a possibility) where as gal steel WILL corrode (will - implies a 100% probability). Both will fail if corrosion is left unaddressed, which implies nothing replaces regular inspection and maintenance.

@noelm you have focused on the weakness of s/s and stated that ...

On 8/21/2020 at 7:03 PM, noelm said:

those snap clip things are as weak as a kitten

I have supplied manufacturer data showing that the snaps I use EACH have a suggested work load (SWL) of 290kg and a breaking strain (BS) of 1160kg. Two snaps combined in the way I use them have an SWL approaching 580kg and BS approaching 2320kg (my whole rig with 2 crew weighs 1972kg). 

If that is not enough SWL or BS, what do you recommend as an adequate strength required for my anchoring needs???

BTW, What is the weight of your rig and what have you allowed for BS in your anchoring set up?

On 8/23/2020 at 8:59 AM, noelm said:

Any sort of "clip" will never be as strong as a formed shackle

I would agree if you had added "for a given diameter of material".  It's obvious you need to oversize the "clip"  if you want to have the same BS as a smaller diameter closed shackle. This is nothing new.

A crane hook is a great example - it's an open hook that is always oversized in material diameter compared to the shackles and chains behind it. The same principle applies to my example - I am using 2 x 10mm snap hooks backed to 8mm short link gal chain - so 20mm of s/s material to 8mm of gal metal. I have also faced two oversized snap hooks in opposite directions to create a closed shackle effect to avoid inadvertent disconnection of a single snap. So I would state that there are ways to match the strength and other characteristics of a closed shackle and that I have taken that into account.

On 8/23/2020 at 8:59 AM, noelm said:

in "most" applications, stainless bolts and shackles will be fine (this does not include engineered loading situations) but, in real terms, stainless has some negatives, it has a low shear strength compared to mild steel,

Hmmmm. what exactly do you mean by "engineered loading situations" ... and the implications to avoid using s/s in "shear" applications??

Please consider my HyDrive hydraulic steering system.

It is actually rated for use with a single 300hp outboard or dual counter rotating outboards combined up to 600hp. So HyDrive would definitely say it was engineered to handle high load situations. The tiller arm is held in place by a 12mm stainless steel bolt at each end. The tiller arm only operates in a direction that imposes a high shear workload.

What would your comment be to HyDrive regarding the use of s/s fasteners for this high shear engineered load situation ???

What material would you recommend they should use?

BTW, What do you use on your boat/motor steering linkage?

Please advise I seriously want to learn here....as maintaining steering control is an absolutely critical safety consideration.

Now if I think of some more places on my boat where "shear" forces have to be handled I'd have to consider that my ally pod is factory mounted to the stern of my Haines by 8 x 12mm + 6 x 10mm s/s bolts.  And both my outboards are mounted to the pod by 4 x 12mm and 4 x 10mm s/s bolts respectively.

What would you say to Haines Hunter or Mercury Marine about the use of s/s bolts in such a shear application?

But lets get back to my anchoring system ...both you and @kingfishbig would have to agree that eventually the anchor rode has to attach to something to have a safe anchoring system - it's no use just focusing on the terminal end fasteners - we cannot ignore what the other end ties to - the bollards !   

Oh dear, mine are all made of stainless steel !!!!  Bow bollard is 12mm dia, ... and the stern starboard and port bollards are each 10mm dia - and they are fastened to the hull by s/s bolts. These are high shear workloads and exposed to corrosion !!!! All of them were factory Installed by Haines Hunter.

What bollards do you guys use? And what fasteners?  Please share?

Now finally, regarding the s/s swivel. Use it or don't... it's your choice. It's an enhancement not a necessity. Some people recommend them others don't. It's not an essential part of what I suggested was a quick anchor change set up. However, regarding them being weak ---- hmmm.

Mine is rated to 1350kg. It was recommended by StressFreeMarine (SFM) to be used with my drum winch set up - due to the high rate of retrieve of the anchor imparting twist etc etc etc.. It is also recommended by LoneStarMarine (LSM). I am comfortable with the product and continue to use it.

I will also again re-instate, my anchor and associated gear, spends such an insignificant amount of time in the water compared to my outboard mounting and steering bolts, bollard, pod etc etc that I am not as concerned about corrosion of my anchoring items as you are. eg in the last 3 trips, where I spent more than 36hours on the water, I anchored once for 1hr. 

I would also argue, that the mounting bolts on  my pod/motor/steering are CRITICAL to the safe operation of my craft. If these failed while under way at say 70km/h I'd be in a critical, life threatening situation .... and YET the manufacturers use s/steel as fasteners for all these components... corrosion and shear strength factored in.

So when I re-read all this, I see that @kingfishbig has highlighted all this concern came about because -

On 8/21/2020 at 8:12 AM, kingfishbig said:

And your anchor is as safety item in the event of engine failure. 

I couldn't agree more. But the anchor is just one critical item in the safety equipment on any craft. It will be useful in certain situations and useless in others eg engine failure at browns (500m depth) the anchor is useless but my sea-anchor, radio and flares would be of great use.   

But the implication of your statement is that you need to make sure your safety equipment is in the best condition for the job as possible. Again, I couldn't agree more. But how do you do that?????

In my case I have followed the recommendations of ALL the vendors that have supplied my anchoring equipment components and ensured that everything is used within the tolerances they specify. I also check, inspect, and replace stuff as part of a regular maintenance routine. 

All the best.

Cheers Zoran

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by zmk1962

[GoingFishing]

Well written Zoran, nothing else that really need be said !!!!!!!!

[kingfishbig]

You haven't actually added anything new Zoran. And you haven't really explained away the documented failures in my links as well as the plausible explanations. The whole point is that S/S is more likely to be weakened by corrosion and without warning. And good luck seeing what is going on on the shaft and pins of your swivel seeing that they are hidden from view. Also they are also likely to absorb and retain water so in fact they can be exposed to water for a long time. Plus your anchor gear might be sitting in a wet anchor well for lengthy periods. And you are not really 'oversizing' when your snaps  are only given a working load of 300 or so kg's whereas a gal D shackle rates in the tonnes (1-2 typically).

Engine and bollard bolts are not comparable. For a start the transom or bow takes much of the strain, you have 4 of them, they are a different component with different rating, they are not immersed as long, etc.

PS: S/S shackles are not recommended for recovery situations(4wd).

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by kingfishbig

[kingie chaser]

11 minutes ago, kingfishbig said:

PS: S/S shackles are not recommended for recovery situations(4wd).

If that was aimed at me we dont need SS for 4x4 recoveries, what we do need is rated gear & recovery points.

End of story.

 

[back cruncher]

Hi all...stainless steel comes in many many grades,used for different applications.

[kingfishbig]

5 minutes ago, kingie chaser said:

If that was aimed at me we dont need SS for 4x4 recoveries, what we do need is rated gear & recovery points.

End of story.

 

Yes rated and not S/S. Doesn't that tell you something?

[back cruncher]

Hi all...you can buy rated stainless shackles ect.very very expensive.

btw,ive worked on desalination plants,guess what there made of ?

[GoingFishing]

1 hour ago, kingfishbig said:

You haven't actually added anything new Zoran. And you haven't really explained away the documented failures in my links as well as the plausible explanations. The whole point is that S/S is more likely to be weakened by corrosion and without warning. And good luck seeing what is going on on the shaft and pins of your swivel seeing that they are hidden from view. Also they are also likely to absorb and retain water so in fact they can be exposed to water for a long time. Plus your anchor gear might be sitting in a wet anchor well for lengthy periods. And you are not really 'oversizing' when your snaps  are only given a working load of 300 or so kg's whereas a gal D shackle rates in the tonnes (1-2 typically).

Engine and bollard bolts are not comparable. For a start the transom or bow takes much of the strain, you have 4 of them, they are a different component with different rating, they are not immersed as long, etc.

PS: S/S shackles are not recommended for recovery situations(4wd).

 

You seem like one of those people who believes that the NSW government burnt down thousands of acres of bush in an intentionally lit and controlled bushfire to make way for a new rail line.....or that perhaps the incoming COVID vaccine has nanotechnology that can track our every move 🤣🤣🤣

How else do you explain your claim that the snaps are rated to 300kg when Zoran has clearly shown they are rated to 1350kg each. Just making stuff up as you go are we??🤣🤣

Edited August 24, 2020 by GoingFishing

[kingfishbig]

The Suggested Work Load is 290 kg  (and this is the only figure you need to pay attention to). Here is what he said:

"I have supplied manufacturer data showing that the snaps I use EACH have a suggested work load (SWL) of 290kg and a breaking strain (BS) of 1160kg. Two snaps combined in the way I use them have an SWL approaching 580kg and BS approaching 2320kg (my whole rig with 2 crew weighs 1972kg)". 

The 1350 kg figure (a 'rating') is for the swivel not the snap so you didn't even get that right.

 

[wrxhoon1]

Kingfishbig,

Are you still going on about NOT using marine grade 316 S/S fittings and fasteners on boats used in saltwater? Are you trying to convince everyone on here that 316 S/S will corrode before mild or gal steel will? Of course anyone with boating experience is not going to take any notice.

Any reputable boat manufacturer uses 316 marine grade S/S .

I don't know what kind of boat you have, where you use it and what kind of fittings she has. Are your rod holders fastened with mild steel bolts? Do you have mild steel bolts holding your engine on the transom? 

I owned more boats than I can remember and all F/G , all of them had S/S fittings.

My current one is made by Grady White, every fastener is 316 marine grade S/S, every through hull fittings above water line are S/S and bronze bellow water line. Maybe you should contact G/W and tell them they are using the wrong fasteners and fittings, tell them and every other reputable manufacturer they should't be using S/S because they will corrode quicker than mild/gal steel.

I'll keep on using 316 marine grade S/S on my boats and trailers, even brake rotors and calipers at about 3 times the price but miles cheaper in the long run. I even use S/S props, never had one corrode or snap, I wonder how long a mild/gal steel one will last. We'll never know I don't think you can buy them, maybe I'm wrong, maybe you can.

Your choice to use whatever you like but I know what will last longer with less maintenance and that is 316 S/S, that's for sure, as long as it is not made in China.

[kingfishbig]

I'm not still on about about 'NOT using marine grade 316 S/S fittings and fasteners on boats used in saltwater?' , etc. I have never said anything about S/S not being suitable for any of the applications you mentioned. My only objection is for anchoring tackle and this is supported by links which include documented failures. . Saying it (your attribution), over and over again does not make it any more credible and is just a diversion from the actual argument. Ie there is a lot of whataboutism going on here: https://www.dictionary.com/e/whataboutisms/

Edited August 24, 2020 by kingfishbig

[GoingFishing]

9 hours ago, kingfishbig said:

I'm not still on about about 'NOT using marine grade 316 S/S fittings and fasteners on boats used in saltwater?' , etc. I have never said anything about S/S not being suitable for any of the applications you mentioned. My only objection is for anchoring tackle and this is supported by links which include documented failures. . Saying it (your attribution), over and over again does not make it any more credible and is just a diversion from the actual argument. Ie there is a lot of whataboutism going on here: https://www.dictionary.com/e/whataboutisms/

Are you suggesting that there is no record, or documented failure of a gal snap or swivel in anchoring tackle?

Are you saying SS anchoring tackle is more likely to corrode than gal anchoring tackle?

 

[kingfishbig]

54 minutes ago, GoingFishing said:

Are you suggesting that there is no record, or documented failure of a gal snap or swivel in anchoring tackle?

Are you saying SS anchoring tackle is more likely to corrode than gal anchoring tackle?

 

This is just argumentative (more whataboutism). You know perfectly well what i am saying. Ie that S/S is more likely to fail and that corrosion in S/S is more likely to lead to failure. Firstly because the signs of corrosion are more subtle in S/S and secondly it does more damage to the strength and integrity than in the case of gal steel.  This is only made worse by the much lower working strength to start with when you compare the ratings.

Edited August 24, 2020 by kingfishbig

[zmk1962]

[wrxhoon1]

13 hours ago, kingfishbig said:

I'm not still on about about 'NOT using marine grade 316 S/S fittings and fasteners on boats used in saltwater?' , etc. I have never said anything about S/S not being suitable for any of the applications you mentioned. My only objection is for anchoring tackle and this is supported by links which include documented failures. . 

Very simple if you think mild steel is more suitable on your application, go ahead and use it. In my application I find marine grade  S/S more suitable than anything else for all my fasteners on boat and trailer. I think you will agree ( maybe not) that the fact that all reputable boat manufactures use S/S,  at much greater expense to mild/gal steel, know it is much more suitable . 

So are you saying you object boat manufacturers using S/S cleats or anything else that you may tie the anchor rode on? What about the bow hook that you hook the winch hook on? Should that not be S/S, you put a lot more load on that when pulling a 3 t boat. In all my boating life I NEVER had to change one due to failure by either corrosion or breakage by the way the backing plate and nuts are S/S as well . All the cleats on my boat are S/S and I do sometimes tie the anchor on them. My Lewmar windlass is S/S and guess what the fasteners are S/S as well, I'm confidant  they won't fail.

Don't you think Grady White would use Gal or mild steel if they thought it would be more suitable and save $$$?

The way you are raving on about, anyone would think we are anchoring a 200,000 t ship. The way I look it at is anything that I use will not fail before the anchor drags on the sand or the rock pick on the reef, the prongs will straighten long before anything else gives way. 

[wrxhoon1]

4 hours ago, kingfishbig said:

. Ie that S/S is more likely to fail and that corrosion in S/S is more likely to lead to failure..  .

Pigs may fly too. If that was true nobody in marine environment would use S/S. 

[kingfishbig]

34 minutes ago, wrxhoon1 said:

Very simple if you think mild steel is more suitable on your application, go ahead and use it. In my application I find marine grade  S/S more suitable than anything else for all my fasteners on boat and trailer. I think you will agree ( maybe not) that the fact that all reputable boat manufactures use S/S,  at much greater expense to mild/gal steel, know it is much more suitable . 

So are you saying you object boat manufacturers using S/S cleats or anything else that you may tie the anchor rode on? What about the bow hook that you hook the winch hook on? Should that not be S/S, you put a lot more load on that when pulling a 3 t boat. In all my boating life I NEVER had to change one due to failure by either corrosion or breakage by the way the backing plate and nuts are S/S as well . All the cleats on my boat are S/S and I do sometimes tie the anchor on them. My Lewmar windlass is S/S and guess what the fasteners are S/S as well, I'm confidant  they won't fail.

Don't you think Grady White would use Gal or mild steel if they thought it would be more suitable and save $$$?

The way you are raving on about, anyone would think we are anchoring a 200,000 t ship. The way I look it at is anything that I use will not fail before the anchor drags on the sand or the rock pick on the reef, the prongs will straighten long before anything else gives way. 

You're the only one raving, you have just repeated your same mistake, ie the logical fallacy of whataboutism.

Edited August 25, 2020 by kingfishbig

[Berleyguts]

Poor Ron! He’s posted a tip for a home made tool in aluminium and the thread’s gone way off topic ad nauseum. I think you guys need to go fishing or at least watch Netflix and chill! 😂