Lobby MPs/ Water Safety NSW for better signs and education

[HenryNSW]

Hi all, 

Just wanted to bounce some ideas with people on the forum on how to better increase awareness for people on the danger on rocks. 

1. Increase/Better signs warning people of dangerous unexpected swells around dangerous spots. (Using the Port Kembla incident, the first 2 hour that we were there, there were just little splashes coming across, given it was falling tide we expected the occurrence of water coming across the top to decrease... which was proven wrong). 

• Even though I am no racing car driver I can drive 110km/hr on a road I have never driven before because I know if road condition changes then there will be signs (e.g. sharp corners recommended speed decrease to 85km/hr). 
• I can walk around the beach on the rocks and see signs where there are unstable cliff edges or falling rock.
• On popular beaches there are sometimes signs showing the location of outgoing rip currents warning people not to swim there

 

2. Better Education and Messaging 

• There are a lot of videos on youtube showing people how to spot a rip current, but not that many teaching people how to read the dangers in a fishing spot (using Port Kembla's example it will be how water turns at the step that carries people off the ledge).
• On the Water Safety NSW website it just talks about life jackets/ cleats, and watch the surf condition (Which doesn't mean much to most people). 
• Give more precise information to people on the limitations of Life Jackets and Cleats.

 

3. Provide danger grading on the various fishing spots 

• I go skiing, and there are black/blue/green grading informing people of the difficulty of the ski pat
• It is very hard to know how danger a spot is.  I fish sometime at Clovelly and Little Bay, and it is weird to see people walking through coming up next to where I am fishing, having a chat/selfie and not wearing life jackets (since they are just walking and not fishing.  In the Port Kembla example there were 2 kids standing near the edge before the video too because the sea was so calm which is incredibly lucky that they went off to a different spot just a few minutes before the swell came over the side)

 

Keen to hear what members here think on any other ideas or comments how to improve general beach rock safety. 

I am keen to write to my local MP to help drive some changes that will help both general public and beginner fisherman like myself. 

[PaddyT]

Henry-write to Stan Konstanaros from the RFA-look them up on FB-he is the one who does huge amounts of education , gets govt funding (he is responsible along with ANSA for the angel ring program)-he actually posted with Mark Bansiak from the Shooters Fishers Party today that they were at Hill 60 replacing rings that have been used in the last sad couple of days-dont dilute the efforts-contact Stan and give him a hand-people are aware -you havent discovered anything new but i have absolutely no doubt that your enthusiasm and help will be appreciated

Many thanks to

Mark Banasiak

for dropping into Hill 60 at Port Kembla this morning to help me carry out a few replacement Angel Rings. I left Sydney at 4.30am to beat the heat and was responding to a call from Marine Rescue at Hill 60 that a few of the rings had gone missing over the ensuing few days of drama and tragedy at Hill 60.

It did give Mark a chance to see the challenges we face with those who fish the rocks in NSW, especially places like Hill 60 that are close to …

See More

[noelm]

Not too sure how to say this without sounding negative or somehow like an "old fart" but....signs will not stop people fishing in dangerous spots, building gates to keep people out will not stop it either, making laws will only create an uproar, by our very nature, humans tend to attempt to do what suits themselves. We have millions of speed limit signs, yet people still get caught for speeding! Education is not a bad thing, but, most will not take heed of what's learned, or adjust to conditions. Someone who has just possibly driven a couple of hours to fish is not going to be deterred by a sign, or a "bit of swell" sad but true.....

[kingie chaser]

1 hour ago, noelm said:

Not too sure how to say this without sounding negative or somehow like an "old fart" but....signs will not stop people fishing in dangerous spots, building gates to keep people out will not stop it either, making laws will only create an uproar, by our very nature, humans tend to attempt to do what suits themselves. We have millions of speed limit signs, yet people still get caught for speeding! Education is not a bad thing, but, most will not take heed of what's learned, or adjust to conditions. Someone who has just possibly driven a couple of hours to fish is not going to be deterred by a sign, or a "bit of swell" sad but true.....

Its a bit like the warnings on cigarette packets that show graphic images of gangrene feet, throat cancers, toe tags on dead people, but people see this as they open a packet & light up.............................they somehow think it will never happen to them 🤨

 

Another example is road side signs that give you statistics of how many people have been killed & injured on a particular stretch of road & as you read it someone zooms past you overtaking on a blind corner over double yellow lines.

 

You just cant educate the stupid out of some people!

[Rebel]

The Central  Coast rock fishing areas are sign posted. People don't care.

[HenryNSW]

what about a searchable map ?  

similar to bush fire map, or Live Traffic map, showing the safety status.   It will at least be useful for people that do care about their safety. 

I always check https://www.willyweather.com.au/   the tide/swell chart before I go fishing. 

[mrsswordfisherman]

http://www.rfansw.com.au/ Here is Rec Fishing Assoc

Stan Konstantaris is the Angel Rings man

https://www.fishraider.com.au/forum/88-safe-rock-fishing-initiative-by-location/

[PaddyT]

11 hours ago, HenryNSW said:

what about a searchable map ?  

similar to bush fire map, or Live Traffic map, showing the safety status.   It will at least be useful for people that do care about their safety. 

I always check https://www.willyweather.com.au/   the tide/swell chart before I go fishing. 

Henry-i kind of get where you are coming from but i think you are asking an App or computer program to replace something that can only be learned by experience and opening your eyes and ears-a bunch of pretty experienced fishos have given you the benefit of their observations of what happened. I understand that you are still rattled by what happened to you (I still get chills from a near miss i had a Whale Beach 35 years ago) but chalk it up to experience. You now know what to look for at that spot-wet rocks, high swell, no escape route-no app or online map can possibly replace your eyes on a spot-if some Govt body controlled rockfishing or made  detailed status reports they would be open to all sorts of legal action if they got it wrong-their only possible course of action would be to shut fishing down just about everywhere-all the time- there are rockfishing advisory warnings on the BOM site and you need to heed them if you lack confidence in your own judgement. Contact Stan and have have a chat to him- he is passionate about safety and can probably help you become a safer rockfisherman-safety is up to the individual.

[DerekD]

Hi HenryNSW,

Firstly, I’m impressed at your passion in pursuing this and the thoughts you have put into your post but it will take a huge amount of energy and time to get it going in the direction we would all like to see. Not to say it isn't worth it - saving one life would be a payback well beyond the energy expended.

Deaths from rock fishing has been an ongoing problem which the authorities have been trying to resolve for decades. There has been a lot of research into it – in fact there was a report back in 2003 covering the years from 1992 to 2000 which broke each incident down into various categories relating to deceased information (age, gender, country of origin, etc) and incident information (conditions, postcode traveled from). Here is the link to the report.

https://www.watersafety.nsw.gov.au/Documents/Publications/Reports-Historical/RockFishFatalitiesReport_Sept03.pdf

I believe there used to be a pamphlet with your fishing licence warning people of the dangers of rock fishing. Furthermore from what I remember the warnings have been translated into many different languages to reach those for whom English is not a primary language.

You mentioned increased signage. I occasionally fish a location near my work which has a sign advising of how many people have died there to date. The majority of people down there wear cleats and life jackets but I still see people come down there with thongs on and they are asking for trouble. Last year I had to help some seriously under-prepared people out of that location as they started getting knocked over by waves. For the record there are several ways in/out of that spot and they picked the worst considering the gear they were wearing. Also the waves were not what I would have considered dangerous if in cleats but they had no grip on the cabbage weed which grows there.

I’m a little cynical in that I believe you can’t legislate against stupidity and I believe there is sufficient information already out there for those who take the time to research properly. A Korean friend of mine was interested in getting into rock fishing with his younger brother and some friends and he took safety seriously even down to the clothes, flippers,  lifejacket, abseilers helmet, etc. He bought his mates down to catch up with me at one of the rock platforms and we didn’t go down. Just looked at what the water was doing, what resources such as seabreeze was saying about the swell at the time. Rock safety. Exit strategies. Etc. Even experienced rock fisherman can misjudge the conditions but they will have taken all practical steps to ensure they are not putting themselves or others at risk.

You can put up all the warnings you want but if people do not take their safety as seriously as they should how can you stop that without affecting personal freedoms? What makes me really angry is that they can put other people (e.g. rescuers) in danger due to their lack of forethought and preparation.

Good luck with this and please consider that this is a problem which authorities and people in the fishing industry have been trying to resolve for decades.

Regards,

Derek

PS. Due to where I live and work I can get to various rock platforms in a reasonable time. If I decide I don't like the conditions and turn away it doesn't cost me much time. Now think about it from the perspective of those of have packed to make a whole day of it, then have a travel time of over an hour each way. They will often decide to start fishing even if the conditions look slightly unfavorable because they have taken so much effort to get there in the first place rather than walking away.

Edited January 28, 2021 by DerekD

[wazatherfisherman]

Henry- firstly I'm glad you and your companions ended up OK from your incident. There are a couple of things to add.

Firstly, I'm not sure if the others close to you were your mates, I take it from reading your post you had companions, but whoever they were, some had long pants/track suit pants on. NEVER wear that sort of clothing on the rocks- shorts only, regardless of the time of year. ALL long pants will be grabbed by any water that comes over any platform and contribute to the water flow in knocking you over. Then if you go in, have you ever tried swimming with long trousers on? They will weigh you down dreadfully, resulting in disaster.

In response to your suggestions-

1) Better Signage- regardless of what is on any sign, if an area is regularly fished by you or others and you arrive and read said signage, after arriving keen to go fishing, how much regard are people going to take of the warning/s? Most likely the spot will be fished (as is the fisher's intention in the first place) albeit "possibly" taking into consideration whatever the warning is. There was a warning last week on NSW Recfisher to be wary of "large and powerful swells"

Honestly, would you choose not to fish a popular location that others were fishing because a sign warned of possible danger? You just can't rely on signage to determine the "safety/unsafe" access to ANY coastal rocks. The sea is in a continual state of change and the only "constant" being that nothing remains the same.

2) Better Education/ Messaging- Observation of the location by those intending to use it is the best indicator of conditions that as said above, are in constant change. The general rule of watching the location for 15-20 minutes before making the decision to go there must be a better indicator than anything else. As Derek said above, especially when new/newish to a location, it's of great benefit to just go for an extended "look". Gives you a bit of an idea how the place works.

 No amount of videos will teach you what is happening on different days/seas. ALL ledges are different. When/if water comes over a ledge, look to see where this water can go, as it will flow back off somewhere on the location. Where possible do not fish single level spots with a "wall/step" directly behind you as the water often "doubles up" before pushing back off the area with an often increased velocity, due to it having nowhere else to go other than straight back into the ocean. There was a large amount of swimmers washed off the Figure Eight Pools platform at Burning Palms from this exact occurrence -there were no signs there and they weren't fishing, but the water that covered the platform needed to flow off and took a lot of people out with it.

3) Provide Danger Grading- It's not reasonable to provide a grading system for different locations because on different days/seas/swell direction etc are completely different. It might be "safe" in the morning then a killer in the space of a few hours/tide difference/wind change etc. Where it is safe one day might be deadly the next. Directly after the cessation of Westerly winds is a prime example. The "westerly-rollback" effect usually results in large, thick swells that head towards land and appear within a couple of hours of the wind stopping. Not always, but often and these are the swells that are really thick and push right over the platforms. Some days these come as "sets" of a series of waves, often with long periods of calm between them.

ANYWHERE that there are lifebuoys/Angel Rings should be considered dangerous- that's why they have been installed, generally because either lives have been lost or multiple incidents have occurred.

Then there is the question of "Liability" from those who erect any hazard signs- does it mean if there are no hazard signs that it's safe to fish there? Authorities can only genuinely "recommend" what to do other than making places completely off limits. If there is no sign, does that indicate whether you can fish in a particular locale? It would mean signposting the entire coast which is impractical to say the least. Anywhere can be dangerous. What if there were no signs or signage removed by vandals or the sea? Authorities can't become "liable" or negligent for either not erecting signs or failing to indicate any changes to the constantly changing coastal environment.

The question of personal safety really comes down to the individual. I don't subscribe to the occurrence of "rogue" swells/waves, there are swells continually inward bound towards land and the ever changing height of the sea determines the height/width/size- even on days of little or no swell, waves/swell will at times come over the rocks at varying heights/power. When you fish the rocks you have to expect this to happen and choose your location wisely.

A pre fishing "just-in-case" plan should be discussed, it's better to know what you will do if either yourself or a companion should get into difficulty. This plan should be discussed EVERY trip- it only takes a few minutes while you are observing the location prior to fishing. Escape routes also change with both tide and sea condition. Always try to have an alternate escape plan. Often, there will be a couple of spots that are better to attempt getting back in from should you get washed in. From in the water looking back at the rocks, you may not be able to identify these spots, so take note of the landform directly behind any exact "escape" spots- no good swimming towards the wrong area. More often though, it is a better idea to not attempt getting back in, but rather swim out away from the rocks- you have a lifejacket on so will stay afloat. Others can call 000 and often a rescue will be effected by either boat or helicopter.

Take your own safety line with you. You might arrive at a location that usually has an Angel Ring installed and it isn't there- used or stolen. We used to have a cork cricket ball with a hole drilled through it and about 15 meters of venetian blind cord attached. This was tied to a heavier gauge rope. The lighter venetian blind cord enabled those on the rocks to throw the ball to the person in the water accurately and the swimmer could then pull the heavier gauge rope out to hang on to. Paint the ball orange as it's hard to see much in foamy or washy water from water level.

I hope you find this useful, I'm not trying to be negative towards your ideas, just realistic. The onus is on the individual in regards to safety. Few people if any can stay upright in green water that races over rock platforms, so all safety concerns should be talked about. 

I have been washed in and I've participated in rescues and sadly a fatality. The swell was really large the day of the fatality (8 meters+), but the surviving fisherman said to me "why is like this?" -"never like this before, come here many times" he just didn't understand at all and it was really distressing.

If it's even slightly dangerous have a plan "B" and go somewhere different, you only get one life.

Take care Henry and safe fishing

 

 

[noelm]

Wise words above and well articulated, Rock fishing is great fun, and even in big swell there are places you can still fish, get to know them, don't be tunnel visioned on one spot and just fish there regardless, take time to see what's going on, and more importantly, take the time to learn what to look for. I think I posted some time ago that a family was going fishing in a big swell and I suggested they just rethink their plan, especially with two young kids planning on fishing too.

[GoingFishing]

We continue to say things like, "cant legislate against stupidity" however i really dont think it is stupidity or arrogance.

For some people who did not grow up by the ocean, did not grow up learning how to swim. The risks are just not obvious to them. How many aussies have we heard about disappearing or dying in foreign countries. They must all think we are stupid right?

Logic dictates that education and exposure is the answer to the problem, but a few seem to think that is a waste of time.

Respectfully, that is a very short sighted view taken by a few who have had the benefit of growing up by the seaside. The type of education we are talking about does not have an immediate effect. It takes years.

You will not be able to educate or get the message through to every person, but a few will learn. They will hang out with other fishos from their community, what was learned will get passed on. As a community they grow and become more educated on the subject matter.

I have experienced this in recent years in my own community. Keeping of undersize fish used to be very common, they either didn't know about the laws or if they did, they didn't care. Yes totally unacceptable.

These days, most fishos in my community are very well educated on the subject matter and i dont know a single one that keeps undersize fish.

Yes i know that keeping undersize fish is policed whilst rock fishing is not........but i assure you the change did not come from the policing. Its pride and education in the sport we love. 

We will never be able to achieve zero rock fishing deaths, in the same way that we will never reach zero car deaths, or zero beach swimming deaths. Sometimes accidents do genuinely happen, sometimes some people genuinely are stupid and dont care. In those circumstances theres not much we can do really.

HenryNSW - honestly the best thing you can do is educate yourself on rock fishing safety as much as you possibly can, and then make sure you communicate what you have learnt with those in your community, and also encourage them to do the same.

The message will get out eventually.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by GoingFishing

[Rebel]

It doesn't matter how many signs that are put up, and all the education that goes with it, people still take the risk and go rock fishing. It is like getting into a car with no license. There are plenty of people that do that.

[HenryNSW]

Thank you everyone for the indepth analysis and comments... really blown away at the complexity involved.  

[DerekD]

Hi @HenryNSW,

Hopefully you have gotten over the rock fishing scare you had a while back. In my opening statement to your original post I stated I remembered a rock fishing advisory pamphlet which came with the fishing licence. Coincidentally I have just renewed and received my fishing licence with the usual extra reading material including said advisory pamphlet. I have attached it to the bottom of this post.

While loading this up I decided to revisit the education aspect of your original post. The government and other bodies have been taking steps for many years to educate people about or flag the risks of rock fishing. How many people do you think will read and more importantly act on the attached pamphlet information?

In this age of the internet there is a wealth of information out there for people who choose to look for it but there is even more information that is completely irrelevant to most people most of the time. The excess of information is such that most people have to block/filter out most of the data they come across each day. You don't have the time to read everything. How many contracts or instruction manuals have you actually read from start to finish. How many fishing people would do hours of research before trying a new aspect of fishing rather than take the learn as you go approach (which can been an excellent way to learn when the consequences of a stuff up are less permanent). My personality is such that if I get involved in something new I take the time to research it. I don’t have to learn everything but at least enough to start asking the right questions. I live in Sydney and neither my career or my personal interests require me to know about invasive plant species in Western Australia. In my work as a mechanical engineer I did find myself researching an invasive environmental weed in NSW for a one off project I was involved with – the information was there when I wanted/needed it.

The Government by including the pamphlet with the fishing licence is specifically directing the information at those it is most applicable to. It does not encompass the information that someone with decades of experience will pick up but if it was any more complicated than it is then a lot of people would not read it. Once it has been flagged then further research will identify a number of other bodies who have put out information relevant to rock fishing. For example:

One of the links included with the pamphlet: http://safefishing.com.au/

Water safety NSW: https://www.watersafety.nsw.gov.au/Pages/rock-fishing/Rock-fishing-safety-tips.aspx

Surf lifesaving: https://www.surflifesaving.com.au/rock-fishing

Royal lifesaving: https://www.royallifesaving.com.au/families/out-and-about/activitiesequipment/rock-fishing

This one is quite good in that it also suggests people talk to locals. https://vfa.vic.gov.au/education/rock-fishing-safety

I stated previously that you can’t legislate against stupidity. Maybe “ignorance” (lacking in knowledge) is a better choice of word than stupidity. There will be people who will research stuff to death once they are aware of it but there will also people who will take the approach of she’ll be right or assume that since other people are doing it so it must be safe. The authorities and relevant associations can only do so much before it is considered interference in people’s freedom. 

The other challenge any relevant bodies will have is that they can only generalise with this information. As others have pointed out how do you educate someone about an area which the locals have taken years or decades to work out especially when conditions change depending on tide, wind or waves on that day and even throughout the course of the day? The difference between relatively safe and unsafe could literally be 30 minutes.

Some people won't listen either. While fishing on a rock platform with a mate several months ago the water level started pushing up. We were 3-4m above the water level and it wasn't an overly big swell but the waves were starting to push over the top of the platform at about knee height. A group of about four people turned up about 15 minutes before we decided to call it and we advised them to pack up and go elsewhere. They ignored the advice even after a bigger wave than we had seen previously knocked over two of them. I'll help people when they ask but I'm not going get into a fight about it or put my friend's or my life at risk if people decide to ignore our advice. We left.

There is an expression in English which goes "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". There is sufficient educational material out there to make a difference. Their are guides out there who specialise in rock fishing but why pay the money. It takes a lot of effort to learn the essentials and the hardest part will convincing people how critical this is. Thinking about this now one worthwhile change could be putting a number of adverts on multimedia which don't hold back about how dangerous it really is prior to the summer season.

Please follow through in your passion in educating people because if you save one life you will have made a difference to that person and their loved ones. Ideally you can reach out to many people but even just a one on one with someone might be enough to make a positive change. 

BTW - Now that you have had a lot of input from others as to the challenges faced previously, if you were in charge of the increased signage what would you put on them? 

Regards.

Derek

Edited March 4, 2021 by DerekD