MFD and Transducer

[Cladone]

Hi all, about to purchase mfd and transducer and have checked the forum for similar posts which have been helpful but don't entirely hit the mark that I've seen.

If I won lotto I'd probably go furuno hands down, but am more realistically looking at garmin 8412xsv and simrad nss evo3s 12.

First query is how to decide between them most suited to an intended use as in substance they do the same things, but appreciate garmin is newer and simrad may be ending the life cycle of current units, obviously UI differences and the like and they are subjective. However has anyone used the garmin g3 vision charts and are they good or do they compare to navionics. I know they bought them and incorporate their data but not sure. Also I hear garmin is like a closed eco system not sure of pros and cons of each unit.

Secondly ... Transducers. I like the idea of structure scan or realview type scan just to add some context and perspective to what I am seeing. I also like the idea of panoptix in seeing how fish respond to and interact with lures. Nonetheless my fishing varies. Sometimes I'm in the harbour to say 50m but a lot of the time I. Coastal say to 200m depending what I'm chasing and all the rest. Infrequently I'll go further and deeper.

Not sure what combination of Transducers in either mfd would cover me for this type of variety. Was looking at airmar lhw but was told hw was better resolution for up to 200m so that was preferred. Don't know what garmins and simrads own transducers.

Just a little confused but if anybody could point me in the right direction based on their experience as to best value and most sensible set up to cover the shallower and mid columns with good resolution but also able to work on the infrequent more deeper depths that would be awesome 

[JonD]

I used Lowrance for over 20yrs but got fed up with warranty issues and problems often caused after firmware updates.

The comercial Edencraft I sometimes skipper has a simrad evo 3 16 which doesn't like rough sea's, to the point it constantly shuts down when you hit a few waves. This is the second Simrad evo 3 after the first was replaced under warranty for doing the same as the first.  Another boat I get to play in has a brand new evo 3 which doesn't work as touch screen very well, even inside a dry cabin. If I held my finger on the screen for around 3'seconds it would occasionally work for me but not for the frustrated new owner.

My own boat is running an evo 3 simrad 7 which also shuts down in my boat when I hit a few waves, to the point I rarely turn it on now. 

I also have a Garmin 8410 in the same boat which works faultlessly even when the screen gets wet, however I have cracked the glass screen simply from hitting waves. 

Both my Garmin and Simrad have the latest bathymetric charts, with not much between the two until you get out into deepwater where Garmin leaves the Navionics for dead.

My transducers are Airmar 175hw, Garmin GT51 and panoptics p30. Both the 175hw and gt51 hold bottom in over 400m. On 260khz the sidescan will scan even at depths of 140m and 200m each side easily picking up bait schools while trolling offshore in good conditions (calm). Thats a lot to have on a 14ft centre console!!!

Panoptics p30 is a big lump of a transducer. Mine struggles in water over 50m but 5-30m its such fun and quite addictive. Mine picks up plastics very well, far better than metal jigs or sinkers etc. When chasing kings I can drop several different plastics and see how the fish react to them and make changes in colour etc. Sometimes I will see so many kings that the screen blobs out with them but as I drift away we are able to countdown how many fish are left under the boat drifting with us, it really is a game changer oaths stile of fishing. Sharks and seals are entertaining on panoptics.

 

[Cladone]

Thanks for that. Yeh heard many mixed reviews on quality of simrads but most people say when they work they are great. Garmin is out of stock until Feb 22 no way I can wait that long but it's tempting. Might pay double and go furuno lol. 

[JonD]

1 hour ago, Cladone said:

Thanks for that. Yeh heard many mixed reviews on quality of simrads but most people say when they work they are great. Garmin is out of stock until Feb 22 no way I can wait that long but it's tempting. Might pay double and go furuno lol. 

I was lucky enough to pick up a new echomap 105sv with transducer for my daughters boat for $1500 just before the price almost doubled overnight. These don't have true glass screens so handle a bashing better than glass screens but they are slightly lower res. 

Whats the resolution of the Furuno, my Garmin has 1900x 1200 which when I was looking into them gave higher than other brands. More res is more pixels per fish. 

[Cladone]

I think it's 1280x800 but I've seen the tzt3 12 in action and I don't care what anybody says there isn't a better machine out there but you certainly pay for it. Probably more than I need and can't justify the cost for the whole set up with dff3d and all that... don't really like raymarine and don't want to wait till Feb to get a Garmin seems like I'm actually left with a choice of simrad. I'll ring around on Wknd see if anyone has garmin in stock but the four places I spoke to this week didn't 

[JonD]

8 hours ago, Cladone said:

I think it's 1280x800 but I've seen the tzt3 12 in action and I don't care what anybody says there isn't a better machine out there but you certainly pay for it. Probably more than I need and can't justify the cost for the whole set up with dff3d and all that... don't really like raymarine and don't want to wait till Feb to get a Garmin seems like I'm actually left with a choice of simrad. I'll ring around on Wknd see if anyone has garmin in stock but the four places I spoke to this week didn't 

What makes it so good ?

What transducer was it using. What depth, what speed at depth etc, how about some feedback on what you've seen from it. They seem very expensive for low res screens.

If you do a bit of research on why resolution is important you will realise that some fish will simply go undetected on lower res screens https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-a-Fishfinder. If a fish finder is set at 10m and shows a fish as 10 pixels vertical at 10m on an older 800 (downward) it will show as 5 pixels at 20m = 2 pixels at 30m and not showing at all at 40-50m. This can be changed by using just a smaller part of the water column using manual controls. On my older units in deep water I would often set the screen to only use 20-30m of the water column which would suddenly show fish that didn't show at all using the entire water column.

I can honestly say I don't know anyone who is using Furno down here, including the commercial operators but I know they all once did. We had Furno on the rescue boat years ago but back then if anyone touched the thing it needed  Furuno tech to come and re-set it.

The commercial boats my daughter skippers all have high end Garmin units, however her boss has just bought a new third boat and has just removed the 24in Simrad (to replace with gamins), in fact he has two of these Simrad 24in units for sale one new in the box if interested in one of those.

[Cladone]

Look they all do the same thing end of the day... my personal preference is furuno. I love the dff3d it's depth penetration and image I find great. I love the UI too just all the small features functions shortcuts. It's a personal preference with most of these things because they all do charts Sonar Radar etc but one guy will swear by garmins charts others navionics. Some are used to something in particular and prefer that. This is my personal preference. I will not buy one cause they are too expensive for my needs. Some love garmin and iPhone some love simrad and Android. Some simrads are duds and replaced 5 times some haven't had am issue for years. I like flexibility of simrad with networking and chart options for example and don't like the kind of closed source eco system of garmin. Yet I really like garmin interface and other options. There is no one absolute answer its all coming down to preference intended use availability etc etc

[tryhard]

Hi Cladone,

My choice was the Simrad evo 3.

I found that for me, it was easiest to use with both touch screen and dial to navigate through.

I like the quality and clarity of the screen.

I am using the 9 Inch as my GPS, but bought it for the above reasons and it's versatility.

I have pounded from the harbour to Hawkesbury and back quite a few times and have had no failures.

I bought it after researching what I thought I wanted and getting a great deal at the boat show ( remember them? Lol)

I will eventually use it for both gps and sounder..when my koden dies...

[Cladone]

Yeah sweet. Those Boat shows were the good old days. The evo3s 12 icom m506 vhf airmar 185hw and 3 in 1 duper all about 7k which I think is good value and all I really need for fishing and cruising. I do like keypad. Can Get it on garmin too just a separate item. I think 8412xsv g51 and airmar ducers with vhf prob on par in price. If you add p30 prob adding 3k.

Not sure if ais in icom overlays on garmin I know it does on simrad

[Cladone]

One thing I gotta figure out is if the 12 fits. I know the garmin footprint is smaller than simrad as it the cut-out. Am I right in saying that so long as cut out fits within the dash then she should be right?

 

I noticed the 12 on my dash when measuring is completely fine width wise but height, there is like a 4mm overhang on two edges because my dash curves a bit at the top. So definitely cut out fits and clearance behind is fine might just replace the dash with a 2cm higher starboard cover and should be okay but I'm hesitant until I get someone who knows what they are doing to check

[tryhard]

Be cautious with that,

You need to allow for the thickness of the fibreglass.

Measure twice as they say!

[Cladone]

My boats dash at helm from behind dash to closest obstruction is about 11cm or so. Simrad for example has clearance of close to 10cm for 12inch. That's cutting it fine but accounting for thickness it should be fine. The 9inch has 9cm clearance.

As for width of unit definitely fine

As for height I know the cut out is within the helm dash area but it's mighty close.

I really don't want less than 12inch so definitely need to look into that.

 

[wrxhoon1]

For Nss evo 3, 12", you need 80 mm clearance for the unit and that's only a small part near the top . You will also need about 170mm clearance where the plugs fit to the unit about half way down from the top.

The unit maybe about 100 mm thick but part of it will stick out. It is best to have a look at one on display. Cut out measurements supplied by Simrad should be fine, they even supply you with a templet. 

[Cladone]

6 minutes ago, wrxhoon1 said:

For Nss evo 3, 12", you need 80 mm clearance for the unit and that's only a small part near the top . You will also need about 170mm clearance where the plugs fit to the unit about half way down from the top.

The unit maybe about 100 mm thick but part of it will stick out. It is best to have a look at one on display. Cut out measurements supplied by Simrad should be fine, they even supply you with a templet. 

Yes thanks for that cut out is one thing but need to account for plugs too. I think I need to dial in on unit to buy and then get to measuring everything before I buy.

Thanks all for the comments 

[wrxhoon1]

If you have at least 90mm near the top at the center of the unit and a minimum of 170 where all the plugs go you will be fine.

[Cladone]

Cheers for that will measure away.

Speaking of units I found you can easily over think things.

Ultimately been tossing up between or at least comparing Raymarine pro 12rxv, Garmin 8412xsv, Evo3s 12 and TZT312.

I guess logical thing is first thinking about intended use and minimum feature set you need or highly desire and start the process and once done compare pricing, dimensions etc etc of short-listed units.

In having done so to some degree it is apparent that GENERALLY SPEAKING 8n substance there are no clear preferences.

Example, I don't want a sluggish unit, I want good resolution display enough that I don't say "I wish it was brighter", 1kw dual channel chirp, some sort of down and side scan/3d for visualising soundings and structure, plays well with things like say Fusion Stereo and vhf (although not critical), ... the usual really.

All do this with their speed of processor, transducer options, customisations blah blah

The only real notable differences that I could see was garmins gt51 has better depth penetration than other brand specific ducers except for furuno. Furunos dff3d gives great 3d rendering and marking to at least 250m.. other side and down scans probably good to 40m or so

 

Charting also. I'm used to navionics and like it but played with garmin yesterday and do not mind it's charting at all I found it nice and detailed. I also found some use for the 3d and fish eye type styles in the garmin in different circumstances its nice 

I like the fish reveal and all have shaded relief etc

I like the completeness of customisation of furuno and its ui most

I have been underwhelmed by raymarine and used to own an axiom but not sure if pro models have improved it much

Then there is cost ... all on par except for furuno. If you could just use dff3d for all depths of fishing it may close gap on price... now I'm thinking about it you probably could use the dff3d as your only Sonar why not it provides all info to over 200m... not sure

Garmin not available till February not sure I can wait until after summer

Then need to consider which actually fits

Ultimately it's not really the big substantive things that differ it's the small ui features customisations etc that all add up and each different unit has some pros and cons making them quite comparable which is what makes it a little difficult 

Anyway that's my crude summary of a rant for whoever is interested and even better who can correct me and point out other things

 

[wrxhoon1]

I thought you decided on the Simrad so I put up some measurements for you. 

It is up to you to decide what MDF you want, one that suits your needs.

I would say go to a shop and try them out, rather than read articles and ask others . What suits me or others may/maynot suit you.

 

 

[Cladone]

43 minutes ago, wrxhoon1 said:

I thought you decided on the Simrad so I put up some measurements for you. 

It is up to you to decide what MDF you want, one that suits your needs.

I would say go to a shop and try them out, rather than read articles and ask others . What suits me or others may/maynot suit you.

 

 

Indeed. Simrad is the likely choice subject to it fitting. Reality is even if garmin was preferred it's not available till next year and furuno too costly. My comments above were just a general rant that there isn't a great difference end of the day with the major items one buys these things for

[JonD]

Here's a comparison of the Garmin g3 vision and navionics bathy charts. Both up to date versions. Apologies for the last being a bit blurry, it was hot under the boat cover!!!

Long reef.

[JonD]

Browns sea mount.

 

[JonD]

Further offshore zoomed out from browns. Navionics is greatly lacking in comparison to G3 vision. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by JonD

[Cladone]

Interesting thanks for that not bad at all

[Cladone]

I've since spoken with a few reps and I'm seriously considering for time being (on basis of cost) forgoing any 3d or down scan type tech and going furuno tzt3 12 with a 275lhw. That gives me all I need to go fishing in any depth I frequent, while enabling me to build on the system in due course. Ultimately though it's either that or simrad. Only reason not exploring garmin anymore is its not available until feb/march next year and I won't wait. Otherwise would have definitely been major contender

[Cladone]

Can I just ask if anybody knows Re simrad ducers.

As I understand it the 3 in 1 does Sid and down scan and 2d sonar.

The 3d structure scan does 3d and down and side scan like the 3 in 1 but doesn't have 2d.

So ultimately by Pairing the 3d and airmar tm275lhw I'm not missing anything at all and have no need for 5100 module as structure scan is via Ethernet?

[tryhard]

Might pay to speak directly (email) Simrad.

I did this with my questions when I was looking and found them helpful.

Alternatively speak with one of their distributors here.

Good luck- let us know how you go.